The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item on our agenda for this afternoon is questions to the First Minister. And the first question is from Dawn Bowden.

Economic Priorities

Dawn Bowden AC: 1. Will the First Minister outline how the economic priorities set out in the programme for government are delivering for people in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ53102

Carwyn Jones AC: We're delivering a range of actions, including the establishment of the Valleys taskforce, to support a stronger, fairer economy, and to allow businesses to develop, to grow and to prosper not only in Merthyr and Rhymney, of course, but across the whole of Wales.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. I know that, across the many elements of the programme for government, you can be proud to have led a Government that's delivering improvements in my constituency. You'll recall that we've opened new schools and refurbished schools, that we've welcomed new investments, including General Dynamics in Pentrebach, Sharp Clinical in Rhymney, and, of course, the ongoing dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road. We're investing over £130 million renewing Prince Charles Hospital, with another £200 million to follow, and we see the regeneration work that's transformed our town centre, and the support for major local tourism attractions, like BikePark Wales and Rock UK. So, can I place on record my thanks to you, Carwyn, for your time as our First Minister, and for the support that you've given my constituency? And can I ask you to assure me that you'll continue to support the delivery of our Welsh Labour values and commitments as vociferously from the backbenches as you have in Government?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, that's a particularly tricky question that I've been posed there by my colleague, but I do thank her for her comments and, of course, what she has said. It shows our commitment to investing in all parts of Wales. We've seen a tremendous change in the economy of Merthyr and Rhymney over the past decade, I'd argue, with Merthyr now being seen particularly as a place of investment and jobs, with Tenneco and General Dynamics, of course, being attracted to the area.
I'll continue to be as vociferous as I can be from the backbenches—but not troublesome—in supporting values that I think represent fairness, justice and opportunity. And that is something I know that is shared very, very deeply between myself and the leader of Welsh Labour and, hopefully tomorrow, the First Minister of Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: As this is the best occasion, or last occasion, on which you will be answering questions in this Assembly as the First Minister, I hope you will accept my and our sincere best wishes for your future from this side of the Chamber. In this spirit of seasonal goodwill, would you join me in welcoming the fact that, thanks to the economic policies of the Conservative Government in London—[Interruption.]—in London, that the number of people claiming out-of-work benefit in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney has fallen by 55 per cent since 2010, thanks to our policies? Thank you.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, there have been occasions, of course, when we've worked with the UK Government—the city deals are an example of that. But if we look, for example, at unemployment in Wales, it is at a level that is at the UK average. Economic inactivity is at a historic low, employment rates are at a historic high, 18,000 young people were able to benefit from Jobs Growth Wales, and, of course, there's the investment that's been put into Merthyr and other communities over many, many years. And we see what happens when a Government commits to the communities of Wales, invests in them and provides jobs for the people who live in them.

The National Grid

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on recent discussions with the National Grid on the north Wales connection? OAQ53103

Carwyn Jones AC: Officials are in regular discussions with National Grid on a number of issues, including the proposed north Wales connection project, which is currently going through the development consent Order process. The Welsh Government has submitted its representations to this process.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. I’d like to take this opportunity to wish the First Minister well in his final question session, and to thank him for his courtesy over the last five and a half years in answering questions on behalf of my constituents.
A constituent from the Star, Gaerwen area was in tears on the phone to my office yesterday, feeling that she was under siege from the National Grid plans. That’s the feeling on Anglesey. Contrary to the wishes of the people of the island, and its representatives, the grid still wants to proceed with building a new row of pylons across the island. This National Assembly has voted against having pylons and in favour of undergrounding as a matter of principle. Will you therefore ask your officials in this forum, as one of your final acts as First Minister, to write to the Planning Inspectorate to encourage the rejection of these pylons, and also to write to Ofgem, as I have done this week, to insist that the grid must give real, meaningful consideration to putting its cables on the new bridge across the Menai, rather than tunneling at a possible cost of £200 million? It would save money for the Welsh Government as joint investor in the bridge, and would save money for the grid, which could then be invested in undergrounding.

Carwyn Jones AC: I agree completely with that. One of the problems that we’ve had in Britain over the years is that no sufficient consideration has been given to ensuring that, if one project proceeds, another project can take advantage of that. One is the Severn bridge and the fact that only cars can cross the bridge. There’s no rail deck there. But, with the Menai crossing, I think it would be important to understand that it’s a very good option that saves money for everybody and of course it’s a way of ensuring that the costs of constructing a new bridge would be reduced.
As regards the grid itself, we’re still urging the grid to ameliorate the impact of any new lines and to ensure that undergroundingis considered in repect of environmental and community impact, and also to consider undergrounding as a serious prospect, because I understand the concern of the people of Ynys Môn, and that’s why it’s so important that the grid should consider ensuring, as far as possible, that any new lines are buried.

Mark Isherwood AC: In terms of your future role, I know this is the end of a chapter, but not the book. I also understand that Mrs Jones may have some ideas for you about what activities you might be undertaking as you go forward, according to media reports.
I was pleased to attend the 28 September meeting and speak at the'AngleseySays No To Pylons' public meeting at MenaiBridge, to discuss the next step, now that the National Grid had submitted the application for development consent to the planning inspectorate. As I said, there are cost advantages to the pylon proposals, but that doesn't take away from the general argument in favour of burying cables in areas of great natural beauty and helping the local economy as much as possible. However, all this is predicated essentially on Wylfa, and WylfaNewydd going forward. What engagement or discussion has your Government had further to coverage yesterday indicating that there was now speculation, and that the board of Hitachi would be meeting in Japan today to discuss this issue because of concerns about projections of future increases in construction costs?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, can I thank the Member and others for their kind wishes? I think I have taken 320 First Minister's questions and been asked 3,000 questions and more. I'll leave others to judge whether I answered most of them, indeed, any of them. I'm sure everyone will have their view on that.
I am aware, of course, of the press speculation regarding Hitachi's investment. It is press speculation. It is a complicated process. Horizon has been in formal negotiations with theUK Government since the Secretary of State's positive statement in June this year regarding the financing of WylfaNewydd, in a way, of course, which works both for investors and the UK electricity market. There is nothing beyond the press speculation to suggest that the project is at risk in any way, but, of course, we will continue to monitor the situation closely.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd.
First Minister, in your nine years in post, what do you feel you have learnt and what advice would you give to the new First Minister?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, you always learn. You always learn. There is never a time when you know everything, clearly. What advice would I give to my successor? I've said it before: it's hugely important to balance the job against your life, because it's important to have time to think, and working day and night every single day is not a good way and not a sustainable way of working. But it's been a great honour to have done this job for nine years, and nine years is enough.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response. As you know, the Welsh Government will soon become responsible for raising a proportion of its revenue via income tax, and this is the final area of policy that I would like to raise with you in this Chamber. Thanks to the UK Government, income tax rates for working people across the UK have reduced significantly since 2010. More and more people in Wales are keeping more of what they earn with the tax-free personal allowance soon to increase to £12,500. Over 1.4 million people in Wales have benefited from the increases made to the personal allowance and higher rate threshold, and 41,000 people in Wales now pay no income tax at all. Coupled with the steady increases in the national living wage, which 81,000 people in Wales have benefited from, this has undoubtedly helped strengthen Wales's labour market and economy. Do you agree with me, First Minister, that Wales's long-term economic interests are best served by households and businesses being provided with a firm guarantee that income tax rates will remain low here in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, he will know, of course, that the manifesto commitment that we gave as a party in 2016 was that we would not change the rates of income tax. But, of course, we have ensured that we have pushed forward with a fairer society. He mentions the fact that fewer people pay tax, but we still have poverty, we still have people using foodbanks—we have people in paid work using foodbanks. That's as a result, of course, of the ending of child tax credits as they were. We can't, as a society, surely, be happy when, in years gone by, we used to say, 'The way out of poverty is to get a job'. That's no longer the case. Because of a lack of job security that people have and the fact that people sometimes have more than one job, we can't honestly say, with our hands on our hearts, that people, if they get a job, will inevitably find themselves in a better situation. And that is a challenge, of course, for all parties in the future.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, for all the fierce exchanges across this Chamber, no-one can be in any doubt about the efforts and sacrifices that you have made in public service in Wales. Despite our political differences, we have been bound by an unshakable commitment to the people we serve and you have carried out that duty with dedication and devotion. So, on behalf of these benches and on behalf of the Welsh Conservative Party, may I wish you and your family well and wish you every success in whatever you do in the future?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, that's very kind. The one thing I will say—just to pull his leg—is I think that's the first time in four FMQs that he hasn't used the word 'shambles' [Laughter.]. But I do thank him very much for his words. He will know, of course, that robust debate is necessary in this Chamber. We, all of us in this Chamber have a different view of the world and it's in this Chamber that that robust debate must be carried out and the testing of ideas must be carried out. But he will also know thatit is rarely the case, if ever, that that is carried on at a personal level. For me, yes, I've been here for nine years answering questions and perhaps I'll stay after that—who knows? But, I'm grateful to him for what he has said and I wish him well for the future.

The Plaid Cymruleader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. First Minister, in the manifesto published during your leadership election campaign in 2009, ‘Time to lead’, you said quite accurately, and I quote, that we need a culture of investment not a culture of grants in terms of our economic policy. However, some days ago, you said that the economic achievement that you’re proudest of was helping to save TataSteel in Port Talbot and bringing Aston Martin to St Athan. Is that the major new vision, the new model, that you had in mind nine years ago?

Carwyn Jones AC: It was crucial to secure the jobs of the Tata Steel workers, and I’m extremely proud that we did that. It’s also important that you can attract investment from abroad and from the rest of the United Kingdom, and we’ve been very successful in doing that. If I understand it, the point the Member is making is what therefore are we doing for small businesses and what are we doing to promote an entrepreneurial culture in Wales. I don’t believe that you can do one without doing the other. We have the development bank that’s been established and we see more businesses being created in Wales. Of course, the greatest challenge is to ensure that those businesses that are growing don’t sell out to major companies, but that they want to grow and are able to grow into major companies. One of the weaknesses that we have in the Welsh economy is that very few major companiesor organisations that exist in Wales where they have their headquarters in Wales. That is something I would like to see changing in the future.

Adam Price AC: Nine years ago, in your manifesto you also said that child poverty continues to be a plague on too many of our communities. Do you regret, therefore, that child poverty under your tenure has increased, now affecting more than one in three children in Wales? And if so, how do you justify the fact that during your tenure as First Minister you dropped your own target for reducing child poverty by the end of this decade? Where was the decade of delivery for children in Wales? Of course, the Labour Party has a new leader now, who’s also said that child poverty is going to be a priority, and that’s to be welcomed. But isn’t that characteristic, if truth be told, of Labour administrations, going back over 20 years: making major declarations of intent, taking small steps, a lack of progress being made, and for hundreds of thousands of our children and people, no hope whatsoever?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, first of all, I can point to what we’ve done to secure a reduction in child and family poverty, for example, and what we're doing with with childcare. It’s very important to very many families, but, of course,we’ve no control over the welfare system or the taxation system. The period of austerity has had an impact on families, of course, and we’ve seen a change in the credits available in the taxation system. It shows, of course, that we as a Labour Government can do much, but there is a limit—that is true. That’s why it’s all-important that we have a Labour Government throughout the whole of the United Kingdom to take action.

Adam Price AC: Yes, but, First Minister, it's not enough, is it, to blame Westminster for all our woes? The Equality and Human Rights Commission report, recently, on poverty in Wales pointed out that poverty rates in Wales have risen faster in Wales than across the UK, and the United Nationsrapporteur on poverty pointed out the measures that are being taken by the Scottish Government that could have been taken here in Wales to provide at least some degree of protection for our people, if you had made the case for devolution.
Now, nine years ago you also said in your manifesto, setting out your leadership aspirations—you declared that a priority would be, and I quote,
'investing in a green transport strategy'
and examining the
'practicality of reopening the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line.'
Yet, during your time in office, the one transport initiative you've been most associated with is building the 14-mile M4 relief road—a proposal that I gently suggest hardly demonstrates a green approach to transport. Nor has it proved to be one where your Government has been able to take a decision. Some thought the relief road would be your last decision in office, though we know that's not now going to be the case. So, can I offer you an alternative, First Minister? The study you promised nine years ago on the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth railway line has just been published. We saw the pictures of Aberystwyth—the town of your alma mater, of course—on the programme last night. If you don't want to make a recommendation to your successor on a road, why not do it on a railway? Wouldn't that be a legacy of which you could be justly proud?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, of course, mischievously, there is a temptation to commit to anything in your last FMQs, but I better not do it. [Laughter.] The Carmarthen-Aberystwythline is a project that is close to my heart, though clearly there is an immense cost. The line itself mainly was taken up in 1975, although a section of it was out of use from the 1960s onwards, and there are significant gaps in the line as well that would need to be looked at. I'd caution against saying, 'Well, roads are not the answer.' The Llandeilo bypass is one road, of course, that I know he will support, and I don't disagree with him—[Interruption.] I don't disagree with him. I know Llandeiloand I know the traffic problems there, so I understand the point, but the question—[Interruption.] The question he asks is aboutgreen transport policy. Well, of course, the south Wales metro was something that I was particularly keen to get off the ground, if that's the—well, it's the wrong phrase. But to start, it was a project that I first mentioned many years ago in Bedwas rugby club, of all places, and now, of course, we see a map ahead for the metro. We know that the traffic problems, particularly in our urban areas, can't be resolved by roads; it's just not possible. A metro solution wouldn't be right for Llandeilo, let’s be honest about that, but for many of our communities in Wales—. The reality is that there is no way of widening the roads into Cardiff. It means making sure there are more frequent services, better services, air-conditioned trains, a decent price that people have to pay for those services to encourage more people off the roads. And that is something I look forward to seeing develop overmany, many years to come.

The leader of the UKIP group—Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Diolch, Llywydd. As we know, First Minister, today is your last FMQs. I think this may not be an occasion to be too controversial, and perhaps we could both be slightly more reflective today. Now, you’ve been the First Minister for nine years, you were a Minister for almost as many years before that, so you have been at the heart of the Welsh Government for almost as long as it has existed. How many marks out of 10 would you give the Welsh Government’s performance during your time in office?

Carwyn Jones AC: Ten. [Laughter.]

Gareth Bennett AC: Is that the answer? [Laughter.] That's an interesting answer, but I may have a different appraisal. Are there perhaps areas where you feel the Welsh Government's performance could have been better?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think the one challenge that is left, and I’ve said this publicly, is local government. I do think that we’re not there in terms of local government. It’s a matter, of course, for the next Government to decide how to take things forward, but we know that regional working has been hugely successful, and we cannot take a back step when it comes to that. We’ve seen the results in education; the same thing must happen in planning, it must happen in social services. That perhaps is the one area I think that is still unresolved—a known major area that, to my mind, is still unresolved and a matter, of course, for the next Government.

Gareth Bennett AC: You were featured in a BBC Wales programme last night, Being First Minister—a very interesting show—in which you said:
'What the Welsh public want to see is delivery. They're not interested in the mechanics; all the rest of it is guff. It doesn't count as far as the Welsh public are concerned.'
End of quote. What advice would you give to your successor on how to reduce 'guff', as you term it, and how to best deliver for the Welsh public?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, as I said in the programme, what counts for any policy or any legislation is that they will be noticed positively by people out there. Of course, the process of honing that legislation is important, but the public don't notice it.What is important is that, when we do something here, people say, 'That's made a real difference to our lives.' Now, I'm not going to go through a list as I normally do in FMQs—[Interruption.] All right. [Laughter.] But the one piece of legislation I think we can all be proud of, and I give Dai Lloyd credit for it, because it was his idea originally, is the Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013. There are literally people alive today as a result of that Act. I know there were concerns and misgivings amongst some Members. Not everybody was entirely comfortable with the direction that was being taken, but I think that is something that I take pride in as a First Minister, but also I think that this institution can take pride in it in terms of leading the way across the whole of the UK and in ensuring that there is hope for people where previously there was none. I don't think there's any greater thing that we can aim for, and that is something that, as I say, this Chamber can be rightly proud of.

Supporting Families

Vikki Howells AC: 3. Will the First Minister outline action taken by the Welsh Government to support families? OAQ53110

Carwyn Jones AC: As set out in 'Taking Wales Forward' and our national strategy 'Prosperity for All', support for children and families across Wales is a priority. It's exemplified, of course,through programmes such as Flying Start and Families First, alongside our childcare offer and the 'Parenting. Give it time.' campaign.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, First Minister. Your administration has been characterised by a commitment to improve the life chances of children across Wales, and that's something thatI'd like to place on record my thanks and appreciation for. The announcement last month of £15 million to expand services to support families and help reduce the need for children to enter care is part of that commitment. I've been doing some work with the WAVE Trust on their work to eliminate child maltreatment. WAVE's answer is built around primary prevention, offering support to parents and expectant parents before damage occurs. I know that officials have met with representatives of the WAVE Trust, so how is their work built into Welsh Government messages on positive parenting?

Carwyn Jones AC: Can I thank the Member for raising the issue of the WAVE Trust? I do support the work of organisations like the WAVE Trust. Of course, they are committed to eradicating child maltreatment. Like many other third sector organisations operating across Wales, the trust's approach complements a number of programmes that we currently run and are developing, for example Flying Start and Families First. They, of course, help parents to adopt positive parenting styles and to provide effective early intervention and prevention services to allow families and their children to thrive and reach their potential. But, of course, inevitably in Government, it's hugely important to work with people on the ground, to have that expertise, and not try to replicate or replace what they do, but to complement the work that they are already delivering in order, of course, to get the best outcomes.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, can I wish you every success for the time that you'll be able to spend with your family as well, post your service as First Minister? I'm very pleased to hear you recognising the work of third sector organisations in supporting families. One very successful organisation that is celebrating its thirtieth anniversary this year is Care for the Family, which is based in Taff's Well. It's been doing some excellent work in terms of positive parenting, and indeed supporting parents not just across Wales, but across the rest of the UK and indeed the wider world. Will you join me in congratulating Care for the Family on their thirtieth anniversary? What specific support are you putting in place to increase the capacity of organisations like Care for the Family and others like them to make their services more widely available here in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Can I thank the Member for his comments? Of course, it is right to say that when politicians are off to spend more time with their families it's a euphemism for being sacked. [Laughter.] So, hopefully that's not the case yet today.
Of course, if we look at the Families First programme, we've invested over £290 million in that programme since it was introduced. That is designed to provide a coherent level of support for families and, indeed, for children. Of course, we look to work with any organisation that supports the Welsh Government's view of positive parenting, because we know that that can deliver the best outcomes for children and parents.

Siân Gwenllian AC: May I also wish you well for the future?
Isn’t it true to say that the poorest families in Wales have been let down by your Government and by your leadership? There are many examples, and the latest are the childcare proposals—a deficient Bill that discriminates against families and parents who are already struggling, because those families not in work will not qualify for free childcare under your proposals. That is unfair and unjust, and Plaid Cymru will be voting against that Bill tomorrow.
Is it a lack of support for the poorest families in our society that is one of the issues that you are most disappointed about in looking back at your tenure as First Minister?

Carwyn Jones AC: May I say, with regard to the childcare Bill, the aim is to ensure that it is easier for people to gain employment or to access employment? We know, of course, that one of the problems that people face is the fact that childcare is so expensive. So, the aim of the legislation is to ensure that that is dealt with—that childcare is available for free. Of course, the aim of the programme is to ensure that people can enter into the world of work, so if they want to do that they can have that opportunity, and that is why the Bill itself has been crafted in the way that it has, in order to get rid of financial obstacles or barriers that stand between people and access to employment, and also, of course, by doing that, reduce poverty across Wales.

Economic Development in South Wales West

Dai Lloyd AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's plans for economic development in South Wales West? OAQ53101

Carwyn Jones AC: Our 'Prosperity for All' national strategy and the economic action plan set out the actions we are taking to support economic development across the whole of Wales.

Dai Lloyd AC: Whilst thanking you for your kind words on organ donation, which is a crucially important piece of legislation for us as a nation, and also for all the assistance you’ve provided to my constituents over the years, may I say: the Swansea bay city deal is central to the economic development of the south west, as you well know? Last week, the Cabinet Secretary for the economy made a written statement noting that the UK Government and the Welsh Government had decided to conduct a swift independent review of the deal, which would look at progress to date, and would also look at how the deal is being governed. Now, elected Members across my region want to see the city deal creating the expected jobs as soon as possible. So, can you expand on the statement made last week, and can you give confirmation to Members todayof the timetable linked to this review? When do you expect it to report?

Carwyn Jones AC: At the moment, what we want to ensure is that the review is a swift one, that it’s independent, and, of course, one that will secure a foundation for the next level of action. Everybody, of course, is committed to ensuring that the deal itself is successful and, of course, we would expect very early in the new year that the review will be available. So, it’s crucial that it’s complete but also not too slow.

Suzy Davies AC: First Minister, hopefully, the Swansea bay city deal isgoingto be part of the legacy that you can be proud of, but, of course, we've all been a little bit jittery about the press reports that we've had, as DaiLloyd mentioned, over the last couple of days. I don't expect you to pre-empt the rapid review, and I'm grateful that both Governments are doing a rapid review, but is there any—? There are two projects of particular importance to me: one being the Swansea digital waterfront and the other being the steel innovation centre, and I'mjust looking—. Is there anything that causes you any concern at all—bearing in mind that these particular projects have had good sign-off—that we would need to know about now, or can you reassure potential investors that concerns over one part of the deal shouldn't shake their confidence in the rest of it?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. Of course,that issue is well known to Members and I won't comment further on it, but the deal, of course, remainssomething that's hugelyimportant for delivery in Swansea bay. But it is important, when circumstances arise, that a review is undertaken, just to make sure that things are movingon as they should, and that, of course, is something that we will work on with the UK Government.

Caroline Jones AC: First Minister, the city deal has a big part to play in improving the economy of my region, as does true collaboration between the public and private sectors. The region's small and medium-sized enterprisesneed a Government that understand their needs when it comes to infrastructure and regulation. What advice would you give your successor when it comes to creating the right environment for Wales's businesses to survive?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think we're doing that already, and I think what's important is, more than anything else, that businessknows that the Government is there to help it, to support it, but not interfere with it. Government works best when it works alongsidebusiness and that is something that we have striven to do over the past decade and, of course, the economic figures show that that approach has been successful. Of course, it'sfor the new Government to decide what direction it takes, but it is hugely important—and this is something that businesseshave said to me many,many times—that we work closely. We're a small country; we work closelybetween publicand private sector to deliver the best outcomesfor the people of Wales.

David Rees AC: First Minister, as Suzy Daviespointed out, one of the aspects of the city deal is the steel institute and, let's be blunt, if it hadn't been for Welsh Government stepping up to the plate under your leadership, we may not have a steel industry here in south Wales to have such an institute—back in 2016.Can you give me assurances that, before you return to the backbenches, you will meet with your successor to ensure that they understand the importance of steel to the industries in Wales, to ensure that it continues to work for the people of Wales, that the plant in Port Talbot is crucial to that sector, including the heavy end, so that we can see, going forward, it's not just the heavy end of steel, it'salso the innovative approaches in steel, and how we can—? We in Wales can lead steel production across the world.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I thank the Member for his comments. We all appreciate how important the steel industry is, of course, across Wales. I well remember in March 2016 the announcements that were made then. I think it's fair to say the future looked very bleak at that point, particularly for the heavy end at Port Talbot. There was a real risk that the heavyend would go, and Shotton, Trostre and the Orb—they seemed to be in a better position because they were fed from Port Talbot. When I went to Shotton, one of the points they made me there was that, 'We'resupplied from Port Talbot. If we don'tget supplied from PortTalbot, we have six months to find another supplier.' And that was a real issue. Even though Shottonitself was doing well financially, actually, without Port Talbot, it couldn't function properly. And that point was made very, very clear to me at the time. We are in a much better position. We're not out of the woods yet. The steel industry is—the market is always difficult and very dependent on currency fluctuations. But it took a lot of work, working with Tata—and, in fairness, Tataas a company were always open to working with us. I think, if we'd had some businesses from other countries, they wouldn't have spoken to us. But Tatahad a sense of social responsibility, which I was impressed with for a company of its size. We were able to work with them to first of all reduce losses then, of course, to chart a course for the future and that work is ongoing. I know how importantthe Abbey, as we all call it, is to the economy, not just of Port Talbot, but—. In my constituency,Cornelly, most of the village was built to house workers working in the Abbey Works, and it will still remain a hugely important part of Welsh industry and, no matter who is in Government, I've no doubt that support will continue in the future.

Improving Standards of Education

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve standards of education in Wales? OAQ53104

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, our national mission is to raise standards of education for our young people. We're developing new evaluation and improvement arrangements, which will further support school improvement. The next stage, of course, is to consider how to support our schools causing most concern at an early stage, and the Cabinet Secretary for Education will update members in the new year on that point.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you very much for that answer, First Minister. According to Estyn, only half of secondary schools in Wales are judged 'good' or 'excellent'. Pupils do not develop knowledge and skills well enough or make enough progress in around a half of Welsh secondary schools, and the majority of pupils in these schools do not achieve in line with their abilities by the time they reach the end of compulsory schooling. This impacts on their employment prospects and adds to the pressure on further education colleges, which have to put right the failure of the education system to prepare these students for work. What action does the First Minister advise his successor to take to address these failings before another generation of children in Wales is condemned to be underachievers?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I don't agree that children are underachieving. I think there are excellent results in Wales in A-levels and in GCSEs, and we see very good standards of teaching in Wales. I think what is right to say is that consistency has always been an issue. Now, of course, the key to dealing with that is local government, because local government delivers education. Now, it's perfectly right and proper, of course, that I'm asked questions, and the Cabinet Secretary is asked questions, about education in this Chamber, but local government has a major role to play, and that means local government has to work together, regionally, to deliver education. We've seen improvements. It'd be wholly wrong for any local authority to try to deliver education itself or to pull out of regional structures. That is a backward step and children's education will be worsened as a result. So, yes, we want to work with the local authorities, but it's hugely important as well that local authorities work together to deliver education across a far wider area.

Siân Gwenllian AC: As we’ve just heard, pupils attending half of Welsh secondary schools are failing to reach their full potential by the time that they leave school. It’s Estyn that states that, despite what you’ve just said. Five years ago, you admitted that the Welsh Government had taken its eye off the ball in terms of education in the past and you agreed at that point—and I quote—that you had taken your eye off the ball. Five years since you made that statement, are you disappointed with the most recent findings by Estyn and the lack of pace in progress in our secondary schools particularly?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I did say that, but I said that about nine years ago. Of course, since then things have changed, and changed for the better. We now see the results improving. For example, we know that the young people of Wales are doing extremely well at A-level and we’ve seen progress in the grades that people gain atGCSE and, of course, we know that the people of Wales are pleased with the education system that we have. Thatdoesn’t mean to say that we’re complacent and we’re saying, ‘That’s okay, then.' There is work to be done, of course, and we understand that and that work is being done by the Cabinet Secretary. But, as regards the way forward and ensuring that funding is available to schools and that funding is available to local authorities to pay teachers, they’ve been given that funding and it's crucial that they should spend that money on paying teachers' salaries. I think a great deal has changed over the past years and we now see things going in the right direction.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, the early years are vital to education and life chances throughout life, so may I commend you and Welsh Government on building the Flying Start programme, which I believe is valuable and effective? But, as ever, there is more to be done, and I think the postcode eligibility criteria for Flying Start calls into question whether more can be done to roll out this programme to many more families in Wales. Is that something that you believe should happen?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, that's a matter—it's a matter for the next Government. It's the first time I've used that phrase, I have to say, in First Minister's questions. But, of course, it's—. The difficulty is that we know that many programmes are being delivered in areas, but we also know, of course, that there will be families in other areas that don't benefit from the same schemes. The difficult bit has been identifying those families who might live outside of those areas in order that they can benefit. I'm sure that this is something that will be looked at in the months to come.

Setting Targets for the Economy

Mike Hedges AC: 6. Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's approach to target setting in relation to the economy? OAQ53078

Carwyn Jones AC: We're developing a clear and consistent measuring framework across Government with the well-being indicators. We'll use those to track our economic progress over the longer term, and we are working with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and other partners to learn from best practice around the world.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the First Minister for that, and can I also add my best wishes to him for the future? Taking forestry as an example, we have long-term targets set but neither annual targets nor area targets announced. Would it not aid both scrutiny and performance if such targets were set and made public, so that we could actually see the steps on the journey, not just where we're trying to end up?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think if we look at the economic statistics—certainly the ones published today—we will see that things have improved greatly over the past year and beyond. Of course, the economic action plan has made good progress since its implementation. We have the new operating model. Since May, we've completed more than 70 economic contracts with businesses, and they are businesses of different sizes. They're not all large businesses, they're in different sectors and in different parts of Wales, and, of course, we're receiving a flow of investment propositions from businesses that align to them.
In terms of targets, well, what we aim to do, of course, is to improve the economy of Wales across Wales. We can see that in the statistics—the statistics tell us the story. They are targets that we would want to improve on in years to come, and we've seen tremendous improvement over the past decade.

Russell George AC: Wales has significant structural economic challenges, and I think you've been right over the years to highlight those obstacles to growth. In a spirit of mutual recognition of Wales's challenges, in wanting Wales's economic fortunes to flourish, what do you feel are the main lessons that you have learnt from managing the economy of Wales over the past nine years? What do you feel are the areas of economic policy that would benefit most from greater co-operation between the major political parties in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: This is now beginning to sound like a job interview, given that question. For me, there are two things that are vital, and these are issues that have been raised with me many, many times. The first is that it's hugely important to project Wales's image across the world—to go out and sell Wales. No-one else will do it, and it's massively important that we have trade missions. Some of those trade missions will be led by Ministers, or by a First Minister. They open doors that otherwise wouldn't be opened, and that has led to us being able to, for example, get to a position where Qatar Airways are flying from Cardiff. The international work is important, and our international offices are hugely important to make sure that people know that Wales is there and what we have to offer.
But skills is the second point. One of the questions that I was often asked when I used to talk to businesses in other countries—and, indeed, businesses in Wales—was, 'Where are we going to get the skills? Have we got the skills pipeline that we need in order to prosper in Wales?' Increasingly, we were able to do that. We were able to say—because we looked at particular sectors where we already had successful businesses, we could say,'There is a skills pipeline—it's there, and, in fact, you can work together to create that skills pipeline with a business that's similar to yours.'
That's been a big change. Wales was seen as a low-cost, low-wage and low-skill economy at one time. We can't afford to be in that position again, and nor would anybody want us to be in that position again in this Chamber. What we can do is have an ever-greater focus on skills, because, by doing that, that's the way that you bring highly skilled jobs into Wales. It's also the way that you encourage entrepreneurs to come forward, because they can work with other people to build businesses in Wales and to realise their dreams. Because we know that, historically, in Wales we've not done well with entrepreneurs feeling that they can take a business forward. Many people have had good ideas and they haven't taken them forward. I think we're past that stage now, particularly with young people, but it is skills, skills, skills.

The Development of Cardiff Airport

Jane Hutt AC: 7. Will the First Minister provide an update on plans for the development of Cardiff Airport? OAQ53108

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. I remember my predecessor, Rhodri Morgan, writing an article in theWestern Mail where he said that my entire time as First Minister would be judged on the performance of Cardiff Airport. On that basis, I'm entirely happy to be judged, then, on that. Other people will have different views—I understand that—but, of course, Cardiff Airport has ambitious plans for growth and a vision until 2040. They can be found in the airport’s master plan that was jointly launched by ourselves and the airport in July.

Jane Hutt AC: I'd like to thank the First Minister for securing the future of Cardiff Airport, and also welcome, as he has, the latest passenger figures, which show that during the last financial year, total passenger numbers grew year on year by 9 per cent to reach 1.48 million. And also, just to follow up representations that I know you have made consistently, First Minister, to the UK Government regarding devolving air passenger duty—of course, there is cross-party support here for that—it's clear it would have a beneficial impact for Cardiff Airport and for Wales, so where do you think we're going in terms of those negotiations?

Carwyn Jones AC: First of all, it's been personally a great pleasure for me to see the growth in the airport. I'd like to pay tribute to Roger Lewis, to Debra Barber and all those who work at the airport who've done so much to ensure its future. I knew there was a future there if it was run properly, and that's what we intended to do, which is why, of course, we didn't try and run it ourselves via politicians or civil servants; it was run and is being run by an arm's-length company. And we see, of course, the great growth in passenger numbers that there's been in that time.
APD is a huge disappointment. It's in the Secretary of State for Wales's constituency, and it's a huge shame that he has not been able to deliver APD to the airport. Scotland has it; there are talks in Northern Ireland. The real reason—. There are two reasons why we haven't had it. Firstly, the Treasury regret very much having given it to Scotland, so they don't want to give it to us. Secondly, Liam Fox represents, if I remember rightly, the area that Bristol Airport is in, and I don't think he's been particularly supportive of APD. Bristol has said that Cardiff is a threat to the airport. I don't see it that way. We need Bristol because if we have big events in the stadium, we need Bristol Airport; we're not out to get Bristol Airport. But I do think that Cardiff has huge potential in terms of long haul, particularly. There are greater advantages that Bristol has got, and even if we had long-haul APD devolved, that would promote huge growth in passenger numbers in the airport and also, of course, take some pressure—let's not over-exaggerate—but some pressure off Heathrow. And Cardiff is the airport in the western part of this island that is best placed to deal with that long- haul traffic. It's a great shame that the UK Government can't see that, and can't see that it would help to take the pressure off the London airports.

Andrew RT Davies AC: It is ironic, I think, that with the clock going on, this might well be the last question, and I'll leave my comments to the next statement about your time as First Minister, if I may, First Minister. But you and I duelled in this Chamber over Cardiff Airport many times, and it'll be interesting to see, once the £100 plus million that the Welsh Government has put into the airport—the longevity of that facility. It is vital that we do have an airport, but it's also vital that you bring private partners in to support the airport, which, in fairness to you, First Minister, I think you've identified as being a goal of the Welsh Government. Can you update the Chamber as to the progress that the Welsh Government might have made in enticing private partners to come in and take a stake, or take some sort of equity in the airport, which will facilitate greater investment? I do go back to my comments that the Welsh Government have put in excess of £100 million into the airport to date. That clearly is not sustainable in itself, so private equity is required.

Carwyn Jones AC: First of all, the purchase of the airport was, if I remember rightly, £52 million, and then, of course, there has been a series of loans that have been made available to the airport. That money is not lost. My intention always was that the airport would increase in value, and it has, well beyond the purchase price that we paid. And there would come a point when private equity would then get involved. It's difficult to see a situation where the Welsh Government didn't have a golden share in any company but, certainly, we'd welcome private investment coming in to help the airport to develop. The question has always been when. When I spoke to Qatar Airways at the start of the year, I asked the view of their chief executive. His view at that point was, 'Well, don't do it yet.' There's still time for the airport to build up, but there'll come a time when looking for private partners will become part of the airport's future.
It's got an exciting future, and the one thing, again, I used to be asked was, 'Does Wales have an international airport?' I know it's in the south, and I know that people in the north of Wales are not going to use Cardiff very much, but it was hugely important symbolically that we had an international airport. That did not mean that we should take on board something that was a basket case that was never going to work, but we've seen with all the flights coming into Cardiff now, with the refurbishment of the airport, that we now have an airport in south Wales that we can be proud of. And if Rhodri was right in terms of judging me on my performance on the airport then I can only be content.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: If truth be told, Anglesey Airport is reliant on Cardiff Airport and the success of Cardiff Airport, but Brexit is a threat to both of those airports in terms of public service obligations. Now, with the European Union seeming to be eager to provide more flexibility to introduce more flights, and the UK Government rejecting that—and we had a statement on this yesterday from the transport Secretary—will you encourage the new First Minister, and whoever is the new transport Secretary, to put as much pressure as possible on the UK Government to make that bid to the EU to allow this flexibility in order to encourage and allow more flights in Anglesey and in Cardiff under the European arrangements before Brexit?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, that work will continue, and it's true to say, of course, that the future of Ynys Mônairport is dependent on Cardiff Airport, and that is why I have been so supportive over the years of the service between the two airports. I know that the history has been difficult now and then, but it is a service that is up there with the best now, and we see that more people are beginning to use those aeroplanes because it's a larger aeroplane, and, of course, some people don't like to travel on smaller aeroplanes. But there are opportunities too for Ynys Mônairport—how can you link Ynys Môn into Cardiff so that people fly from Ynys Môn to Cardiff and then outwards in the same way as they fly to Schiphol and now, of course, to Doha? There are opportunities there to expand the services available from Ynys Mônairport, not, of course, just to link north and south Wales, but also to link Ynys Môn and Gwynedd, through Cardiff, to the rest of Europe.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Statement by the First Minister: Resignation Statement

May I now call on the First Minister to make his resignation statement? First Minister.

Carwyn Jones AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Later this afternoon, I will be writing to Her Majesty the Queen to resign after nine years as First Minister of Wales. It's been a privilege to succeed my friend and mentor Rhodri Morgan, and of course it's been a huge privilege to serve Wales in this job and to be at the helm at such a challenging and crucial time in our history as a nation. In preparing to give up the reins, I have mixed feelings, of course. They are bittersweet, if I can put it in those terms. Those are the feelings I have, like everyone else leaving a post that has been central to their lives. There's a sense of sadness in standing down as well as pride, too, in the work that has been achieved.

Carwyn Jones AC: Llywydd, later this afternoon, I'll tender my resignation to Her Majesty the Queen, after nine years as First Minister of Wales. It was a privilege to follow my friend and mentor Rhodri Morgan. It's been a huge privilege to serve Wales in this job and to be at the helm at a time of great challenge, a crucial time in our nation's history. As I prepare to hand over the reins, the feelings are, I suppose, bittersweet, an experience shared, I'm sure, by everyone leaving a role that has been central to their lives. There's sadness, of course, in standing down, combined with pride in the work that has been achieved.
The post that I took on in 2009 has changed considerably since I took it on, and so has the world around us. People were more likely to write a letter than a tweet, selfies were more a thing for Paris Hilton than politicians, and arguably that should still be the case. [Laughter.] Perhaps more importantly, the National Assembly and the Welsh Government are very different organisations too, with more powers, more levers and higher expectations of delivery. If someone had said to me in 1999 that I would leave the job of First Minister—well, that would have surprised me, but leave the job of First Minister in a tax-varying, law-making Parliament, I would have been very surprised and delighted.
We have those tools. We have achieved a great deal, even in these toughest of times. Devolution is established, not just in law, not just in fact, but now in the hearts of the people of Wales, all doubts removed.
But, if I've achieved anything in this time, it's been with the help of many, many others. I've learnt that you achieve very little in life on your own. Our Parliament may be more powerful, but it's still young and it is, at least to my mind, too small. And that means there is huge pressure on everyone in this Chamber to make Government better. The crucial democratic duty of proper scrutiny, which is a task you've all taken to with the utmost seriousness—sometimes taken too seriously for my liking—. But nevertheless that is what I'm here to do. But I pay tribute to everyone in the Chamber for what you do to challenge us to do better.

Carwyn Jones AC: I'd like, if I may, to just mention some people. First of all, my family: Lisa, my wife, who is here today, and I've been married to her for 24 years; Caron, my father, who is also here today and was here nine years ago; my mother was alive at that point, but died six days after I became First Minister, and she is somebody, of course, who is very much in my thoughts today; and my two children, Seren and Ruairi, who have had to live with a father who was always in Government and the embarrassment that that brings. So, my thanks to them as well.

Carwyn Jones AC: Thank you to the children and to Lisa and dad.

Carwyn Jones AC: Could I thank the Permanent Secretaries who have served in my time—two Morgans and a Jones—and the civil service? Because, politicians, of course, come up with policies and ideas and, sometimes, it is for civil servants to put those into practice. It's not always the easiest thing in the world, and I thank them for the work thatthey have done. I thank the Labour group and the Welsh LabourParty for the support they've given me over the past nine yeas, and I look forward, of course, to making sure that support is available to my successor as well, and that goes without saying, of course. To you, Llywydd, of course, it's not always easy to control this Chamber, sometimes tempers are a little frayed—I think Adam and I are probably guilty of that, and we saw it last night on the documentary—[Interruption.] The Amman Valley, well, the upper Amman Valley—we could discuss which end of the Amman Valley is best. And, of course, all Assembly Members, because, as I said, scrutiny is a hugely important part of Government. If there's no scrutiny, then Government becomes sloppy, Government becomes ineffective, and that's why the scrutiny of all in this Chamber is important to hone Government and to make sure that Government understands what needs to be done in order to make legislation or policy effective.
It's been a challenging time—the double whammy of reduced budgets and the impact of benefit cuts on Wales, and then, of course, the small matter of Brexit. Whilst it would've been irresponsible for any leader to have ignored these issues, I've always talked to my Cabinet about the importance of delivery, regardless of these dominant issues, and what is it? Well, it remains the same: people want good schools, a good job and a good NHS, free at the point of use; they want a better tomorrow for their children and their grandchildren. And so, there are 118 brand new schools in Wales and a further 41 under construction, and the children in those schools are getting more and more top grades. In the future, they're going to learn more and more, not just traditional subjects, but how to be good citizens. Our education system is not fractured by destructive competition. Our schools and our teachers are working together in the interests of the whole country.
And there are tens of thousands more people in work today, including, of course, in Port Talbot, Trostre, Llanwern and Shotton; tens of thousands of young people are pursuing life-changing apprenticeships; we have record inward investment; 18,000 young people have been given opportunities through our Jobs Growth Wales programme; there are 20,000 fewer young people not in education or training. More people are surviving cancer than ever before; delayed transfers of care are at a record low; we've improved survival rates because of our new ambulance response model; and these are more than soundbites, they are fundamental truths about how life is changing for people in Wales. Because, what does a new school mean? It's not just a political promise kept; it's a child's future improved. Whether it's in Rhyl, Aberdare or Cardiff East, 11-year-olds are walking into bright, new schools with third generation pitches outside and the latest technology at their fingertips inside.
Extra investment in our NHSdoesn't mean more doctors and nurses on its own, it also means that 700 people have been able to access HIV prevention medication in our country. Not one of the people who have accessed pre-exposure prophylaxisin Wales have gone on to contract HIV. And one of the remarkable changes, since I was a teenager and in university, has been the conquest of AIDS. The shadow of it was frightening back in the 1980s. Nobody ever thought at that point there would ever be a way, not just to remove AIDS, but to control it. And, over the years, we've seen a huge change in that, and that, for me, has been an incredible testimony to the medical research thathas been carried out.
We've set examples for the world to follow: we introduced deemed consent for organ donation; we abolished child burial fees; we're world leaders in recycling; we've legislated to protect tenants and prevent homelessness; ended the right to buy in Wales; we've reformed the social care system in Wales; and we've redefined the language. The language, at one time, many of us will remember, was a political football; it isn't any more. Now, we have a language that everybody knows is a source of national pride, whether they speak Welsh or not. And we've committed, of course, to make Wales the safest place in Europe for women.We're not there yet, there's some way to go, but that is the aim of not just the Government now, but the Government in the future.
When we were provoked as a nation, we held firm. Those attacks on our NHS in Wales, a line between life and death, we responded with dignity, and we backed our hardworking doctors and nurses, not just with extra money, but with something of even greater value, and that's respect. Making policy for Wales, not for London's media.
Our growing confidence and self-belief as a Government, as a country, has come even in the face of a decade of austerity. But, of course, none of these policies and achievements exist in isolation from each other. They all to my mind add up to something that I always want for Wales, and they are fairness and hope, because they have been my watchwords in Government, just as they were my parents' watchwords at home. And those are the words, I believe, that are very close to the heart of the person I'll be voting for as the next First Minister of Wales. It is Mark, to make that clear. [Laughter.] It has been a great pleasure to work alongside you, Mark, and all my Cabinet colleagues, past and present, who have given me such fantastic support for so many years. Mark is someone who can effortlessly match both principles and pragmatism, and I have no doubt that he will make a superb First Minister of Wales.
I've been told that Geraint Thomas has done the ultimate Welsh mic drop after winning the Tour de France, so I won't attempt to finish it in quite the same way, not that I suppose that I can anyway. [Laughter.] Instead, I'd just like to say thank you to everyone here, but most importantly to the people of Wales I've had the honour to serve. Every school or hospital, every business I've seen, on theEisteddfod maes, or the Royal Welsh showground, out shopping with the family, or the rugby, wherever it may be, I've been met with kindness and with courtesy, and I cannot thank you enough.

Carwyn Jones AC: It's been an honour.

Carwyn Jones AC: It's been an honour. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. [Applause.]

To reply to the statement, therefore, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, as you've said, you have led your party and your country for nine years, and as has already been said in this Chamber earlier today, you have been a member of the Welsh Government's Cabinet for over 18 years—almost as long as your former Government colleague, the Member for the Vale of Glamorgan. Of course, duringthat time, you have held many of the major portfolios—education, environment, agriculture and Counsel General—as well as the highest public office in Wales. Very few people earn the privilege to lead their country, and let alone for the best part of a decade.
Legacy is important in politics, and it is true to say that many people will remember your time as First Minister for different things and different reasons. The decisions we make as politicians, particularly when we hold high office, can have significant consequences for our nation and for individual people. They can affect people for good and for ill. Sometimes we cannot conceive of the consequences that our decisions will have, but they will have their effect nevertheless. Some decisions we will wish we had made sooner, some we regret, but all are part of our story and the legacy we leave behind.
Personally, having been an Assembly Member since 2007, I have always found you approachable and straightforward, particularly when I have raised issues of concern. Being an elected representative does place additional responsibilities on us, and that's okay, because we go into politics with open eyes. But it places additional responsibilities on our families as well, and that can sometimes be very difficult. We sometimes ask a lot of our families and our loved ones. As First Minister, I appreciate the additional scrutiny and pressure on your family, and I am sure that their private feelings of relief at your decision to stand down are matched by admiration and pride for the work you've done in the last nine years.
While we have had many political differences and expressedstrongly held views on Welsh Government policies and decisions, I have always had the utmost respect for you as the holder of the office of First Minister, and the way in which you have conducted your role. We have clashed on several occasions in this Chamber, especially in recent weeks, but whatever our political differences, as people, I am confident that there is more that unites us than what divides us. And, yes, there are times when we have worked together in the national interest.All parties in this Chamber campaigned together in the 2011 referendum on law-making powers, but we've shared some common ground on policy too: food hygiene ratings, public health, free childcare and carrier bag levies to name a few. And I know that in recent weeks you have visited a number of projects delivered during your time in office, and, not least, a number of new school buildings built through local authorities and the Welsh Government's twenty-first century schools programme.
While it's fair to say that you took over from a real giant of Welsh politics, your successor too has some big shoes to fill. I genuinely believe that all of us in this Chamber, while our journey here came through different routes, from different parts of Wales, are united by a commitment to public service. We all want the best for our country. We want a healthier, more prosperous, more environmentally friendly and fairer Wales, and through robust debate in this Chamber we all vote in the best interests of the people we represent, and I know that you share that desire, First Minister. And, on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group and the Welsh Conservative Party, I'd like to thank you for the immense contribution you have made during your tenure as First Minister, and the contribution you have made in 18 years in Government to our National Assembly and to Wales.
As the Assembly Member for Bridgend, I know you will continue to play an active role in Welsh politics and in this place, and beyond that as well, and I know that public service is in your veins. So, I'm sure there is a future for you working for the people of Wales in public life. Thank you for your commitment to public service, Carwyn. Congratulations on your achievements in office and may I wish you and your family every success in the future. [Applause.]

Adam Price AC: First Minister, I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that we haven't always seen eye to eye over the years. But, I have no doubt that at every point during the period that you have held high office you've had the interests of our country foremost in your thoughts. When you took the reins, you were just the second First Minister in our history, and that particular honour will be yours forever, of course.
One of your main tasks in many ways was to build on the success of your predecessor, and someone you described earlier as your mentor, Rhodri Morgan—one who was crucial in gaining popular support for our National Assembly, a new institution that was on very unstable foundations during those early days. You took that responsibility seriously, working in the coalition with my party at that time. You proceeded with the referendum that we as two parties had agreed to institute, ensuring that this Senedd today has the powers that enable us to legislate for Wales and its people, today and for the future. That was quite an achievement, Carwyn, and I'm eager to put that on record today. Through collaboration between our two parties, there was a successful referendum in 2011, which was a historic milestone. We use those words very often as politicians, but this was historic in terms of the growth and development of our country’s national institutions.
I think your articulation of your vision of the kind of constitutional framework that Wales must have in order to become a more successful country can be seen as your most important contribution. As well as developing the Senedd'slaw-making powers, we saw the beginnings of the introduction of tax-varying responsibilities during your tenure. These powers will be crucial for us to have a more rounded economic policy for the future. You’ve also argued the case strongly for a distinctive legal jurisdiction for Wales and set in train the commission on justice, which I'm sure will take that agenda forward. Indeed, I am confident that leaders of an independent Wales in the future will be grateful to you for your contribution in that regard.
Beyond that, you've made a number of interventions more generally on a UK-wide level, calling for more co-operation between the devolved administrations and the UK Government. You've called for a federal structure for the United Kingdom, with the devolved nations represented in a reformed second chamber. This has of course opened the door to the next stages in the evolution of the relationship between the countries of these islands, which I'm sure will inevitably happen over the next decade. I'm sure that you will have a further contribution to make to that discussion.

Adam Price AC: During this time, closer to home, of course, at the dispatch box in this Chamber, as you've already alluded to, you've generally sustained—our Amman valley passion notwithstanding—a quiet dignity, if I may say, in your dealings with colleagues. You have overseen a very wide brief with masterly composure. I, for one, have found you a tough opponent to disrupt. Shall we just say it's hard to ruffle your feathers, Carwyn?
Those outside the immediate cut and thrust of political life will find it hard to understand the stresses and strains that inevitably affect us all, and not least the families on which we all depend. So, as well as paying tribute to you personally, I think it is fitting that we should also acknowledge the support you have received from your wife Lisa, your children, SerenandRuairi, and from your father, Caron.
Carwyn, through all your period in office, you have demonstrated an admirable resilience, a quality I am sure will be necessary for your successor, whoever that turns out to be. [Laughter.]

Adam Price AC: May I wish you sincerely all the best for you and your family for the future, and thank you from the bottom of my heart, on behalf of the people of Wales, for your years of service? [Applause.]

Gareth Bennett AC: Thank you for your statement, First Minister, and thank you for your kind attention to the questions I and the UKIP group have asked you over the past two and a half years. We have occasionally had our disagreements, but I feel that these were political differences of opinion, and certainly, for my part, I never felt there was any personal acrimony there. I have enjoyed our encounters. Of course we will still see you in the Chamber, but it will be slightly strange not to see you in the seat that you've been occupying for all of my time here. I would say that I haven't always agreed with your answers, but on the whole you have demonstrated a good mastery of your very wide portfolio as the Welsh First Minister, as Adam Price alluded to just now. You've also shown a great deal of stamina in remaining in office for so long. I believe that you and Jane Hutt are among the longest serving Ministers in UK political history.
There have been remarks in the past about your resemblance to the tv weatherman Derek Brockway, and there was that Comic Relief performance of a few years ago when the two of you swapped places. Personally, I couldn't quite see that resemblance. Increasingly, I am finding I get you confused with the Welsh rugby coach, Warren Gatland. [Laughter.] Is it true that the two of you have never been seen in the same room together? Anyway, while you reflect on that, I wish you well, First Minister, in your future career, on behalf of both myself and the UKIPgroup. Thank you.

Vikki Howells AC: It's an honour to speak today on behalf of the Labour group, to pay tribute to the man who has led our party and our country for the past nine years. The challenges have at times been considerable. As I know you've previously said yourself, Carwyn, you took office in the wake of the global financial crash, constrained by the political commitment to austerity from Westminster, and the past few years have, of course, been dominated by Brexit. There have indeed been dark days, but throughout, Carwyn, you have provided principled and passionate leadership, a leadership that has stood up for Wales, that worked together to build a better Wales, and the achievements have been considerable—not least of these has been your success in leading Welsh Labour to two election wins.
Opinion polling consistently told us, Carwyn, that you were the most highly rated politician in Wales—an electoral asset to Welsh Labour. I personally experienced a little of this magic, and I fondly remember campaigning with you in Mountain Ash just before the 2016 election. The support that you provided to me as a first-time candidate was much appreciated, as, I hope, was the warm welcome that you received from local residents at the busy weekly market. A group of women we met at Abercynon library a little later on were similarly starstruck, but you found a way of engaging themand putting them at their ease—so much so that when I returned a few minutes later, they were happily giving you advice on how to dye your hair. [Laughter.] Then they moved on to complimenting you on your walking programmes and your cheerful evening broadcast, and the truth sank in. They did think that I had brought an equally popular weatherman for a visit.
But, regardless of that case of mistaken identity, your leadership in government has really made a difference in Wales. It’s made a difference to the additional people in work or with qualifications. It’s made a difference to the record numbers of NHS staff and the pay that they receive. It’s made a difference to the people accessing new treatments, not waiting so long for diagnostic tests or transfers of care, and simply surviving conditions like cancer.
As I mentioned during First Minister’s questions, I know that opportunities for children and young people have been important to you, and it’s clear that your Government has also made a difference here: targeted support for families who need it most; the most generous childcare offer in the UK; action to support students; retention of the EMA; improvements in examination results. Most visibly, Carwyn, as other speakers have commented, your commitment to the twenty-first century schools programme has ensured our children and young people are educated in modern facilities fit for purpose. Altogether, nearly £4 billion has been earmarked to this, and over 150 schools and colleges will have been built or refurbished by 2019. My constituency of Cynon valley has more than benefited from this. Over £100 million-worth of investment means that pupils of one brand-new secondary and seven brand-new primary schools are now taught in state-of-the-art facilities. And these improvements also extend to the further education sector. Another memory that I will treasure is accompanying you as you cut the sod for the new £22 million Aberdare Coleg y Cymoedd campus in snow and freezing hail. And while many other leaders might have made a very hasty exit in such awful conditions, you decided to climb on board the bus that had been brought in for the workers and deliver an impromptu speech there to them. I think that's a measure of the man.
Carwyn, you also made a difference through your role in helping to deliver a positive result in the 2011 campaign on law-making powers and in the way that your Government has used these powers since. Just as important have been the taxation powers this Assembly has been granted to deliver the first modern, made-in-Wales taxes.
I know your resignation here today will not mark the end of your contribution to public life in Wales. I also know that Lisa, Seren, Ruairi and Caron will cherish being able to spend more time with you.
As someone who has both studied and taught the history of Wales, I’m confident that your place in the history books of Wales will be a prominent one. So, diolch yn fawr, Carwyn, and all the very best for the future. [Applause.]

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, it’s a pleasure to say a few words in this statement, as you and I have jostled over this Chamber for nearly seven of the nine years that you’ve served as First Minister. Much of that debate and the elections that I fought you under were a fat lot of good to me—[Laughter.]—because you stayed in that chair and I stayed on this side. But I well remember the first time you and I met, and that was when I was chairman of the National Farmers Union and you came as our guest speaker at the South Wales Police Social Club at Waterton. Some 17-odd years on, here we are, standing in this Chamber in an institution that has transformed itself into a fully fledged Parliament. And you can take much credit for that, both from your time as Minister but also as First Minister. And in your address to us this afternoon, you did give credit to everyone who’s participated in that journey on devolution, whilst quite rightly pointing out the success that you’ve had as First Minister, and your Governments have had. You, again quite rightly, pointed out the people who've supported you in that journey. Because we, as politicians, know that very often it can be a very lonely journey, and some of the calls you have to make, especially from a position of government, are decisions that you as an individual have to take. And so I pay tribute to your time in Government, and your time as a Minister, and your time as an Assembly Member, which, obviously, will continue till 2021.
You have public service running through your veins, without a shadow of a doubt. Someone doesn’t give the time and commitment that you’ve given without having that public service running through your veins, and you can be held in great tribute about the efforts you’ve done to improve the lot of the people of Wales.Politically we are quite different, there's no doubt about that, but that's what politics is about—plurality—and that's something that surely we should be celebrating.
I well remember the time when you announced you were standing down back in April, and you paid tribute to the staff that have supported you. I think we can all pay tribute to the staff who've supported us, because, when you made that announcement, it was on a Saturday, and most people who know me and my farming background know that's the time I spend in the livestock markets down in the west country, and my chief of staff was in Las Vegas on a stag do, and my press officer was at the Tottenham Hotspur football match at Wembley, and between us—my lack of technology is a stumbling block, to say the least—we managed to put a press release together, but you had taken us by surprise at that moment, you had.
But you've never taken us by surprise in your commitment and dedication to Wales. You've highlighted exactly one of the big jobs that you have done, which is to raise the profile of Wales not just here in the United Kingdom, but across the globe, and I pay wholesome tribute to you in doing that. Many years ago, many people from Wales would go abroad and if you were asked in a survey or questionnaire and someone would say, 'Where are you from?' and you might say, 'Cardiff', or you might say, 'Wales'—'Huh? Where's that?' and then you'd just say 'London' or 'England', and 'Oh, I get that'. Well, today people know where Wales is and people know what Wales is about, and a lot of that credit is down to you as First Minister and the efforts of your Government.
I thank you most sincerely as an Assembly Member for the courtesy you've extended to me in the time I've been an Assembly Member, but also the courtesy you've extended to me as leader of the Conservative group here in the Assembly. I wish you and your family all the very best for the future. When we do go home at night and we shut the door, if we've had a particularly brutal day, it is the family that put their arms around us and console us, and I'm sure your family will be a great source of strength to you. I wish you well for the future and, in the remaining two or three years that we have before the next Assembly election, I very much hope we see a very active Carwyn Jones in this Chamber. All the best, First Minister. [Applause.]

Leanne Wood AC: For the six and a half years that I was the leader of my party, Carwyn Jones was First Minister, and I think it's fair to say that, like many have said already this afternoon, we haven't always seen eye to eye. On occasion there's been fairly robust disagreement between us, as there should be between opposing political parties, but I think it's fair to say that those disagreements have on the whole happened in a respectful way, and they've happened in a way that have enabled both of our parties to work together when the need has arisen, and I value very much the private discussions that we have had.
Carwyn, from my experience of working alongside you, I know you to be genuine about wanting to create a Wales where people do not suffer from discrimination. Whether that be putting the far right in their place on the question of racism and division or whether it be on the question of women's rights, you've taken a principled and ethical approach and I believe that you deserve recognition for that.
You've also been genuine in your desire to see Wales progress, and while I may well have been frustrated about the lack of support for faster progress, particularly on the Welsh constitution, on powers and the lack of support that you've had from your MPs in particular, the fact that you've now started the ball rolling on the devolution of the criminal justice system, as well as having worked with others of us to deliver a successful 'yes' vote back in 2011, shows where you stand politically on these questions. I very much hope that the work that you've started on the criminal justice system will bear fruit and soon.
Now, I know that this last year has been very difficult for you personally, and for others around you, and I know from my own experience how life in the public eye can impact on those closest to us, even when we seek to protect them from that. That aspect of the job is probably the least easy, so I hope that, after today, you will have more time to devote to spending with those people who are close to you and who you love. That, after all, is what is most important.

Leanne Wood AC: So, good luck to you.

Leanne Wood AC: All the very best wishes to you and to your family for the future. [Applause.]

John Griffiths AC: Llywydd, I think there are nine of us here today, nine Assembly Members—old timers—who've been here since the very beginning, and obviously that includes Carwyn, me and you. [Laughter.]

Gee, thanks, John. [Laughter.]

John Griffiths AC: Much accumulated wisdom and knowledge, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

Okay, okay.

John Griffiths AC: I think it's fair to say we've all seen exponentialdevelopment and growth in devolution and, indeed, in Wales as a country since 1999, and we are now a Parliament in all but name and, hopefully, that name will soon follow. And the depth and breadth of our responsibilities, and the tools that we now have to do a job for the people of Wales, for our communities are much bigger than they were, and I believe they are being used to good effect.
Over that time, Llywydd, we've progressedfrom the Egyptian potatoblight regulations to those arcane creatures, LCOs—legislative consent Orders—and Assembly Measures, and now to Acts. And, do you know, we've seen some really significant, important Acts, Ibelieve, really delivering in terms of the use of those powers for the people of Wales: the well-being of future generations Act, the environment Act, the social services and well-being Act, the organ donation legislation, and, I would say, the active travel Act, which I was privileged to have a part in when I was in Government. So, we havecome a long way. For nine years of that time, during that time of development and growth, better and more effective delivery for Wales, Carwyn has led Welsh Government and led our country, and led that building of devolution in Wales, in the referendumas was mentioned earlier and generally, and led on the actual implementation and use of those powers, which, obviously, is absolutely crucial.
It's been a tremendous opportunityfor Carwyn, and a tremendous responsibility,privilegeand honour,and one that I know he is very conscious and always has been very aware of and all that those responsibilitiesbring. I believe Carwynhas fulfilled those responsibilities, Llywydd, with commitment, dedication, ability and stature, and that's a fabulous tribute to the man.
At the start of the Assembly, Llywydd, I and Alun Pugh, who represented Clwyd West at the time, quickly became good friends, the three of us, and I think it's fair to say that it was clear to Alunand I that Carwynhad strong leadership qualities. I think, even back then, that was recognisednot only by us, but across the parties in the Assembly at the time, across Assembly Members, in the media and more widely. I found out about those leadership qualities to my cost early on when I contested withCarwynthe prestigious position of chair of the South East Wales Regional Committee. [Laughter.]That was an early advancement for Carwyn, but it didn't sully our friendship in any way.
But, outside the Assembly, Llywydd, my efforts to enlist Carwynin the Assembly football and cricket teams were met with limited enthusiasm, I think it's fair to say, although Carwyn did play and did take part. And whilst sometimes effective—[Laughter.]—

Carwyn Jones AC: You're too generous.

John Griffiths AC: —I did find Carwyn keen to demonstrate his knowledge when it came to the opportunity to take part in a quiz. And I think that was partly because Carwyn certainly possesses considerable general knowledge and, in fact, was the star of our quiz team. We tied for first place in the competition, Llywydd, and when it then came to the tie-break, Carwyn was very keen to demonstrate his knowledge further and be the member of our team that went up onto the stage for the tie-breaker. Unfortunately, and unexpectedly, it wasn't a tie-break question, but a dance-off. [Laughter.]Llywydd, I won't go any further than saying I don't think that Carwyn's dancing abilitiesquite match his general knowledge and his prowess at quizzes.
But, in any event, very early on, Llywydd, Carwyntook a Cabinet post and took Wales through that terrible crisis of foot and mouth, which,again, many of us will remember very well—the searing difficulty that that brought to our rural communities and Wales as a whole, and it was Carwyn'searly responsibility, early in his time in the Cabinet, to take Wales through that. That was a major challenge and, again, it's a tributeto the mettle of Carwyn that he was able to meet that challenge and guide Wales through that time of terrible crisis.And when Carwyn became First Minister, it was a great privilege for me to serve in Government with Carwynand have the opportunity, as I said earlier, to take forward legislation such as the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013.
Llywydd, I think it's fair to say, as others have mentioned, and Carwynindeed himself mentioned, Carwynhas built on the firm foundations of Rhodri Morgan. And both of them, I believe, are quite similar in many ways in terms of their passion for Wales and devolution, their passion for rugby and sport in general, their commitment to the job of leading Wales and fulfilling the role of First Minister. And I think it's a tribute to both of them that they were both widely respected in Wales and referred to by their first names, their Christian names, which I think speaks volumes in terms of the affection and the respect that they are held in by the people of Wales.
Llywydd, Carwyn's place in the progressive history of Wales and the UK is secure, and I know all of us here today will wish Carwynthe very best for the future and also his wife Lisa, their children and his father Caron. Diolch yn fawr, Carwyn. [Applause.]

Thank you. And before I call on the First Minister to respond, may I also, as an old-timer—[Laughter.]—thank the First Minister for his service on behalf of all Members of this Senedd? Over the years, it’s been a pleasure and a privilege to work with him. May I disagree with the First Minister on one thing, namely his view on selfies in politics, and to tell the First Minister that the most popular selfie that I’ve ever put on Twitter was a selfie that I took of both him and me in Lille, in the crowd on the night that Wales beat Belgium in the quarter finals of the Euros, with the caption, ‘Please don’t take me home, I just don’t wanna go to work'? That was a very popular selfie and tweet.
So, thank you, Carwyn, for your friendship over the years, also for your service to your Government, to this Senedd, and your nation. And to reply—the final word goes to the First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

Carwyn Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I won't detain Members for too long, but just to thank everybody for their very, very kind words.

Carwyn Jones AC: May I thank Paul for his comments? It is true to say that there are many things that happen in this Chamber that happen at a political level not a personal level.
May I also thank Adam? I was at the millennium centre on Sunday and I saw a book there that had been published by YLolfa—they were articles written by Adam between 2001 and now. I now have time to read them, so I might do that. But it was his face that I saw when I entered the centre.

Carwyn Jones AC: Can I thank Gareth for his comments? And Andrew. Over many years, we jostled—fortunately for me, not physically—[Laughter.]—on the other side of the Chamber. But, certainly, he's absolutely right to say that there were many conversations that took place behind the Speaker's chair, as I think they call it in Westminster, that were needed in order to get business through, and for that I very much thank him.
For Leanne—I know Leannespent many a week frustrated at the answers that I gave, which I suppose for me should be a source of pride. [Laughter.] But I know from her perspective, as I've said to her before, she has done an immense amount to raise the profile of women in politics in Wales. It was with great envy that I watched her in all those election leaders' broadcasts, when she was on network television and I wasn't—[Laughter.]—and she brought great credit on herself when she was involved in those debates. And certainly, for a long time afterwards, people thought that she was, in fact, the First Minister—and who knows in the future.
And finally, of course—. Oh, Vikki, of course, thank you for the words that you said.
And finally, John. When I heard that John was going to speak, I felt the same feeling I did when I got married and the best man was about to speak—[Laughter.]—because John knows many, many things over the years that we've done. But of all the things I can tell you about John, the one piece of advice I'd give you is never let John book you accommodation. We went to Blackpool some years ago, and John booked the accommodation. It was £10 a night. We shared a room. When we arrived, the hotelier said to us, 'We pride ourselves on the fact that the hotel doesn't have any meters in the room',and that was the selling point, apparently. The hotel had a shower—one shower—that you accessed by walking straight off the corridor into it through a curtain, if I remember rightly. [Laughter.] It was quite an interesting experience. So, John is many things, but a luxury tour operator, I suspect, is not what lies ahead. [Laughter.] John, I've known you for all of those years, and we've had good fun and ups and downs, of course, but, nearly 20 years on, we would've been stunned, wouldn't we, to think that we would sit here in a Parliament with such powers, given where we were back in 1999? It was the potatoes originating in Egypt Order, and we talked about undersized whiting—that's what we were talking about in the Chamber. Who would've thought that the day would come when we would talk about human transplantation and changing the system of consent?

Carwyn Jones AC: Thank you all very much, and best of luck to you all.

Carwyn Jones AC: Many thanks to you all, and the best of luck to you all in the future.

Carwyn Jones AC: It's been an honour and a privilege to serve my country as a proud Welshman.

Carwyn Jones AC: It's been a great honourand privilege for me to serve my country as a proud Welshman. [Applause.]

Thank you, Carwyn.

3. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs

Questions now to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Neil McEvoy.

Empty Dwellings in Cardiff

Neil McEvoy AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I declare an interest in being a Cardiff councillor.

Neil McEvoy AC: 1. How does the Welsh Government use the planning system to address the issue of empty dwellings in Cardiff? OAQ53075

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Local planning authorities need to have a clear understanding of the factors influencing housing requirements in their area, including empty dwellings. Local housing market assessments are a key piece of the evidence base for local development plans, which cover the whole housing market, including dwelling vacancy rates.

Neil McEvoy AC: Diolch. Today is a historic day, so I'd like to start by honouring Prince Llywelyn, the last native prince of a sovereign Wales, who was killed on this day in 1282 at Cilmeri.
Cabinet Secretary, I recently visited a house in Ely that was starting to look like a jungle. The garden was so overgrown that you could barely see that there was a house there. In the garden, rubbish was being dumped, the windows were smashed in and plants were growing into the house, and it's one of 1,300 empty properties in Cardiff that a family should be living in.
Cardiff has the worst record in Wales in bringing empty houses back into use—less than 1 per cent in 2016-17. You're letting them get away with that, but at the same time letting the Labourcouncil build thousands of new houses on greenfields that local people simply cannot afford. So, why aren't you demanding that Cardiff Council use their powers and get these empty properties back into use, because nothing shows the neglect of our communities more than houses being left to rot for years and years?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I know that Cardiff Council do have an aspiration to reduce the number of vacant dwellings, and that approach was considered as part of the independent local development plan examination. I will say that empty dwellings are, absolutely, a wasted resource. They can often be the target of vandals, which obviously affects the quality of life of neighbours and local communities. As a Government, we've put forward funding—I think it totals now about £40 million—on a continuous recycling period. I think that's over 15 years, and that's been provided to local authorities to operate schemes.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, I do think this is an important area of public policy. Depending on how you count empty homes—whether they're empty after six months or a shorter period—there's somewhere between 23,000 and 43,000 empty properties in Wales. In my area, Rhondda Cynon Taf has nearly 500 properties that have been empty for five years—that's the worst of any authority apart from Swansea. It's quite remarkable that around Wales there are well over 1,100 properties that have been empty for 10 years. So, it is very important, as we need to emphasisethe need to build more homes, that we do use the homes that are out there as efficiently as possible.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I can't disagree with anything that David Melding said. I think the level of empty dwellings within a local planning authority area should be a consideration when they are considering the level of homes in a new development. I mentioned in my original answer to Neil McEvoy the funding that Welsh Government has put forward. We've had the Houses into Homes scheme, we've had the home improvement loans scheme, and that does provide local authorities with the flexibility to be able to respond to the demands of their particular area.

Question 2—John Griffiths. John Griffiths isn't here to ask question 2.

Question 2 [OAQ53086] not asked.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

The next questions are from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson—Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch, Llywydd.Cabinet Secretary, you told the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee last week that the common agricultural policy and basic payments don't give the outcomes that we need to see. What evidence do you have that what you're proposing in 'Brexit and our land' will?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I have spoken to Llyr in the Chamber about this scheme before. I think one of the main things that we've seen this year is that the basic payment scheme is a blunt tool that doesn't protect farmers in the way that we would want to against volatility—I mentioned the weather when we spoke about this. Last week in front of the committee, I talked about it not rewarding the farmers' performance and about it not assisting with productivity.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I didn't ask you to deconstruct CAP and the basic payments; I asked you whether what you're proposing will actually deliver the outcomes that you're critical of the current system of not delivering, because, of course you don't know, do you? And that's the reality, because you haven't done the modelling, you haven't done the piloting—there's no evidence that your never-before-tried proposals will actually deliver the outcomes that you want. Indeed, you're setting farms and the whole rural economy off on a journey where we don't really know where we're going, or at least we don't really know how we're going to get there, because you haven't done the homework. Now, don't you accept that the modelling and the piloting all should have happened before you introduced your White Paper, because if the modelling tells you in the spring, or whenever it happens, that it won't deliver the outcomes we want to see, then you'll have wasted a whole year of Brexit preparation, and that will make Welsh Labour's record look just as bad as Theresa May's?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I don't agree with you, because we haven't brought forward the White Paper yet; we'll be doing that in the spring. If I'd have done the modelling and the impact assessment before we went to consultation, we would have been criticised for pre-empting. It's much better to have those 12,000 responses we've had to 'Brexit and our land' on the two schemes that we're bringing forward. So, the economic resilience scheme—that's around food production. It's to make sure we make our farm businesses resilient and sustainable, exactly what they want—they want them to be prosperous. And in relation to the public goods scheme, we want to reward farmers, which is not at the moment being done, around the public goods that they're bringing forward—that wonderful air quality, soil quality, water quality, the flood prevention they're doing. So, when we do bring forward the White Paper in the spring, that modelling and that impact assessment will have been done.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, when that modelling, when that impact assessment and when the piloting will have been done, if that eventually shows that retaining a form of basic payment is actually necessary to achieve some of the outcomes that you've listed, or at least to keep farmers on the land in order to achieve the environmental, the economic, the social and the cultural outcomes that you've been at pains to tell us that you want delivered—if all of the evidence, having done that work, tells you that retaining a basic payment is necessary to achieve it, can you confirm to the Assembly today that that is what you'll do?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I will be very interested to see what the modelling and the impact assessment brings forward. Because of the blunt tool that has been the basic payment scheme—and I've had many discussions with farmers over the past few months, many of whom tell me themselves that they don't think the basic payment scheme is enabling them to be resilient and productive in the way that they want to be—I would be very surprised if that were the case. I mentioned last week when I was in front of committee that I will be very flexible. So, let's see what comes out of the consultation, and what goes then forward into the White Paper before we produce the next stage of the policy.

Conservative spokesperson—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer.Minister, back in ministerial questions in February, you indicated that when it came to issuing environmental impact assessments, you were minded to grant such an assessment to be made on the Barry incinerator. That was in ministerial questions. It is important that, when Ministers speak in this Chamber, obviously,people from beyond this Chamber, as well as Members who put those questions, do see action. Can you update us as to what progress you've made, given that, as I said, in February, you were minded as a Minister to undertake this and here we are now in December with no improvement in the situation?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his question. I know that he's been vociferous in taking this forward alongside the constituency Member for the Vale of Glamorgan. Whilst we anticipated a decision by the end of November, further legal clarification of aspects of the case has been necessary. I want to make a decision to issue this as soon as possible, because I'm aware of the ongoing situation and the concern that's been raised, but it's important that, when we do this, we ensure that our actions as a Government uphold our international obligations in respect of an environmental impact assessment. So, officials are currently giving careful consideration to compliance with theEIA directive, taking into account representations from the Member himself and other Members, the developer, and, of course, the Docks Incinerator Action Group.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I hear, Minister, what your international obligations are, and no-one on this side of the Chamber, or indeed anywhere in this Chamber, I would assume, would be calling on you to break such obligations, but some 300 days have passed since you made that commitment in February. Whether it be Barry or any other part of Wales, when a Minister makes such a pronouncement, it is expedient for that Minister surely to carry out as quickly as possible the due diligence that might need to be taken in that decision and come back with a decision in an appropriate time. Can you please give us a more definitive response as to when we might have the response from you, given, as I highlighted last week in this Chamber, that the First Minister indicated in his letter to me that that decision was going to be taken in November? As I said, it has been nearly 300 days plus since you made that announcement. How much more timedo you actuallyneed?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Like I said, I hope to be able to be in a position to make a decision as soon as possible. I recognise the concerns around this, but, as the Member himself said, due diligence is of the utmost importance when it comes to such a complex case and issue as this. We must make sure that we follow all—take the relevant legal advice and do everything we can possible to make the best decision.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Well, that is a bitterly disappointing answer, given that I could understand that type of answer coming to me maybe a month, two months, perhaps three months after you initially stated your position, but some eight months on you are still trotting out that answer. Now, I did have a written reply from the Minister yesterday indicating that there were legal considerations that the Government are working through at the moment. Can you at least give us an indication—and I'm not looking for the legal advice that you were given, because I appreciate that you can't give us that, but could you at least give us some of the areas that that legal advice is referring to? And is it specific to Natural Resources Wales, who are your advisers on this matter, or is it wider planning issues that that legal advice has been taken on?
I do believe—and I hope you agree with me—that the residents of Barry require some greater clarity than the answers that I've received from you on two occasions now out of three, and I do hope that, as webreak for Christmas now in the coming days, you can give me and other Members some confidence that we are within touching distance of a decision.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Like I said, I can't reiterate enough to the Member that I'm fully aware of the concerns of residents on this issue and of the Member himself, but it's very, very important to me and to this Government to make sure that we take all the legal steps necessary and make the right decision, not just legally, but for the residents of Barry as well.

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Well, we live in very uncertain political times, and I suppose this may well be the last time in which we shall face each other across the Chamber in the Cabinet Secretary's current capacity, although I should regret it if she is moved on. I've come in the last couple of years to admire and respect the open-minded approach that she has brought to quite a number of issues, listening to stakeholders and local people in particular decisions on nitrates and also on bovine TB, but I have to say that in recent times this reputation that she's built up has been rather dented by several decisions over which she's presided: one, of course, the shooting ban, which Natural Resources Wales has introduced on public land; the draconian fishing laws on salmon and sewin, proposed by NRW again on questionable evidence; and of course what I raised last time, the Hendy windfarm, overruling Powys County Council and her own inspector's report.
Theresa May has been criticised, rightly, I think, for failing to listen and has landed herself in a massive mess, which she'll find it difficult to extricate herself from. Does the Cabinet Secretary herself have any regrets about railroading her policy agenda over the interests of local people and local stakeholders?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, if you're referring to the Hendy windfarm situation,which, as you say, you raised in the Chamber, obviously, I am very aware that there's been a claim submitted to the High Court. So, I can't say anything further on that. I'm very pleased with the renewable energy targets that I've brought through the Chamber. I think it's very important that we have ambitious renewable targets. I'm very aware of my obligations and the Welsh Government's obligations in relation to climate change, and I think the renewable energy targets that we've brought forward—. We had a debate this time last week on carbon regulations; I'm bringing forward the carbon delivery plan in the spring of next year. So, I'm very proud of those.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, I accept that the application for a judicial review in the case of Hendylimits significantly what the Cabinet Secretary can say, but I do think that the decision that she took is troubling as a matter of general principle. Localism is an important principle of government, in my opinion, and I'd be surprised if the Cabinet Secretary disagreed with that. Occasionally, national considerations have to take precedence over local interests. Again, I fully accept that. In the case of calling in a planning decision to be made by her rather than by a local authority or, indeed, an inspector's decision, what is the principle upon which she will override the decisions of those who are at a lower position in the pecking order?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I don't think I can give you a general answer to that question. Obviously, it's done on a case-by-case basis. I have two on my desk now that I read for the first time over the weekend, I read again yesterday, and I'll probably read again today. It's something that you obviously have to consider a great deal, but I don't think I can just give you a general answer to that specific question.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, I'm sorry that the Cabinet Secretary's unable to answer, because I think there's an important question of transparency involved here, that the decision on Hendy was very different from the decision that she took on Rhoscrowther. She decided there not to intervene, and so we now have a windfarm going up. I visited it myself last week. Scars in the landscape are being made, which will wreck the magnificent views across the hills. AtRhoscrowther, of course, the landscape and seascape was protected. In these circumstances, is it not appropriate for the Government to publish the reasons why it takes a decision in one case but not in another so that the people can understand upon what principle these very important decisions, which affect their daily lives, are based?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the decision letter is always published and, obviously, that is available to anybody who wants to read it. I think it's really important that we make the planning system as simple and as uncomplex as possible. You'll be aware that last week I launched 'Planning Policy Wales: Edition 10', which is the new edition of 'Planning Policy Wales', and that's really been revised now to take account, in a much more holistic way, I think, of the decision making that's taken in relation to the built environment.

The Role of the Planning Inspectorate

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the role of the Planning Inspectorate in Wales? OAQ53067

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Planning Inspectorate is an arm's-length appellate body sponsored jointly with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. The Planning Inspectorate in Wales makes planning and other decisions under allied legislation based on the adopted local development plan and national planning policy on behalf of Welsh Ministers.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware that there's been outrage in Aberconwy regarding the Marl Lane planning application and, indeed, the process so far. This was a decision by planning councillors, members of the planning authority, who refused it, only then for it to be suggested that it goes to public inquiry. This was in March of this year, and then the public inquiry was delayed until September of this year, and it is fair to say it was very, very controversial. In fact, the headlines were, 'Battle of words at Marl Lane planning inquiry'. Because, quite frankly, the site is a constrained site, not in the local development plan, and it was highlighted during the submissions to the consultation, during the meetings, and in correspondence to the inquiry, that it breaches TAN 24, TAN 5, 'Planning Policy Wales' 6.5, cultural heritage CTH/1, development affecting heritage assets, DP/6, compliance with national policy and guidance. Now, there is a feeling in Aberconwy, and the finger-pointing is actually going on, for a change, to here—as opposed to UK Government by this Government—but it is, in fact, the Welsh Government that, in effect, are allowing one individual to actually come in and make decisions above the heads of the locally elected members, myself included, but our locally elected planning authority—thousands of objectors. Now, we are still waiting for a decision on this site, and I would just ask the Cabinet Secretary to have some empathy with those who are very concerned about this site. We don't have the school places, we haven't got the capacity for our health service. There are numerous reasons why this planning application shouldn't go ahead. It should not have been dragged out so long, and I just wonder at what stage will you actually ensure that the planning inspectorate have a little bit more respect for the democratic process within our local authorities, and, indeed, forour own residents.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, the Assembly Member will be aware that, in my role as Cabinet Secretary with the responsibility for planning, I'm unable to comment on a specific planning application.

Local Air Quality Measures

Helen Mary Jones AC: 4. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline how local air quality measures, such as clean air zones, will be funded? OAQ53084

Hannah Blythyn AC: Improvements to local air quality are supported through a number of funding mechanisms, including a dedicated air quality fund, worth over £20 million. This can support the costs of clean air zones where identified by local authorities as the best option to deliver legal compliance with air pollutant limit values.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Thank you. I'm grateful to you, Minister, for your answer. You will be aware that air pollution contributes to about 2,000 deaths per year in Wales and has been described by Public Health Wales as an urgent public health crisis. Is the Welsh Government prepared to act to ensure that councils introduce clean air zonesif local action isn't adequate or isn't timely enough in your view? And will the Government reconsider the possibility of the introduction of a clean air Act for Wales if these local clean air zones don't deliver the outcomes that we are hoping for? These are 2,000 deaths that are entirely avoidable, and I strongly support the approach of looking for local action first, but, in the end, there are some things that are so important that it needs national legislation.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Can I thank the Member for her question? It's important that—. It's absolutely correct that this isn't just about meeting legal compliance, because it's the right thing to do to tackle poor air quality and the implications it has for people's health and well-being throughout Wales.
In terms of local authorities, I would expect all local authorities to assess the potential for what action is required to achieve reduced pollution levels and improvement in public health, and also, working with schools through the eco-schools project, to develop their own campaigns with the children and to achieve that behaviour change in the local community as well. But, obviously, there's action we're taking at Welsh Government level, which includes our clean air programme, our clean air plan and the establishment of the programme across Government.
I have been clear from the outset that this is a high priority for this Government and that we want to take action now because we know it's an immediate threat, which is why we are taking those actions that we can within the time frame that we have and the pressures on us. But, equally, I've been clear that if we take these—the clean air programme, the clean air plan, supporting local authorities to implement clean air zones and take local action—if we identify that there are gaps andwe do need to legislate further, then that's certainly something that can be considered in the future.

Suzy Davies AC: Minister, I have to say I was a little bit disappointed that the temporary 50 mph speed limit extension to the west of Port Talbot wasn't terminated this summer,as you indicated in a speech earlier this year.Of course,I accept that Welsh Government is in a bit of a bind at the moment regarding this court case around air quality and having to reduce, particularly, traffic congestion emissions, as a result of that court case. Even so, I think we still need to get some sense of perspective here, because, obviously, there's a huge amount of industrial pollution in thePort Talbotarea as well. So, I'm wondering if you can tell me how you balance funding between central and local government attempts to tackle both traffic air pollution and industrial air pollution, and, particularly, the money that you give to local authorities—how you ensure thatit's actually spent on improving air quality, as the money was intended to do.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for her question. I know it's something that you've previously raised in this place, alongside the Member for Aberavon as well. You know there's a particular complexand complicated challenge in relation to air quality around Port Talbot, because of the historic nature of the steelworks, which is such a large employer for the area too, and also the M4. In terms of—. You recognise, in terms of the speed limit, looking at that is what we've identified as being able to meet that legal compliance in the shortest possible time frame going forward. In terms of how we look at—. You're absolutely right that to address the air quality, it's not just looking at nitrogen dioxide emissions alone; it's actually the PM particles, it's the whole suite of air quality issues in the area, which is why our clean air programme, clean air plan, will work with stakeholders and local authorities to look at that in the whole and to address that. And it's something I'm happy to follow up with the Member in more detail, should I be in a position to do so in the future as well.

David Rees AC: Minister, as Suzy Davies pointed out, the issues of air pollution in Port Talbot, in particular, and the hazardouz air management zone, are two-fold. It's the M4 and the traffic emissions and it's also the industrial emissions. And Suzy and I met with Welsh Government officials yesterday to discuss the M4 side. Last time I spoke to you and raised the question, you were indicating that you were going to meet with Tatato discuss the industrial side. Have you met with Tata, and if so, can you give us the details of those discussions and the outcomes?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his ongoing commitment in this area. You're right: myself and the Cabinet Secretary for economy both met, not just with representatives from Tata, but with Neath Port Talbot Council and Natural Resources Wales. Part of this meeting was to look at the issue we found over the summer, in terms of, particularly, the nuisance dust as well, but also, how they might better perhaps work to communicate with local residents and build those relationships, but also, the steps that would be needed to be taken to mitigate the impact of poor air quality generated from industrial emissions in the future. That's work that is obviously ongoing. I want the short-term action plan on Port Talbot to be reviewed and to make sure that it's fit for purpose for the future, and both myself and the Cabinet Secretary for economy are keen to actually visit Tata to see first-hand what could potentially be done, and what are thebiggest challenges, so to speak. So, Iam happy to keep the Member updated and involved with that as well.

Pollution in Welsh Rivers

David J Rowlands AC: 5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on action taken to address pollution in Welsh rivers? OAQ53073

Hannah Blythyn AC: The river basin management plans, published in 2015, show that water quality across Wales has improved significantly over recent years, with 37 per cent of the water bodies in Wales now meeting good status under the water framework directive. Work is under way to increase this to 42 per cent in the next three years.

David J Rowlands AC: As you will be aware, the fishing association have referred a complaint to the EU Commission that argues that huge quantities of slurry and poultry manure are being spread indiscriminately on large areas of farm land, and that the rules and guidelines governing how this should be done are consistently being broken. This is, of course, having a substantial impact on theecology of our rivers. Will you give us your assurance that all is being done to monitor this practice, and thus ensure the integrity of our rivers?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his question and his interest in this area. He raises a very important issue. Any incident of pollution in our rivers is one incident too many, for a variety of reasons, which is why this Government has taken action in terms of how we tackle agricultural pollution. We know that the vast majority of people adhere to best practice, and it's the minority that create these incidents that we are taking action to combat. Just this week, my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs—I forgot her title for a moment then—announced further investment for the sustainable production grant, which is to support the delivery of environmental outcomes, including on agricultural pollution, and provide support for farmers facing the considerable challenges of Brexit. So, that's just one step.
We're also working with—. Of course, pollution doesn't just refer to slurry. It could be litter and other contamination in our rivers, and that's why we work with organisations such as Keep Wales Tidy and Groundwork Wales to tackle that as well.

Mark Isherwood AC: In October, we corresponded about a pollution incident in the Afon Clywedog Dee tributary near Wrexham. Of course, specific pollution incidents are a matter for Natural Resources Wales. How do you respond to concern that the self-reporting procedure with water companies, now applied by Natural Resources Wales, takes away the proactive inspections that used to be in place and carried out by Environment Agency Wales staff, and to concern that the current redeployment of skilled fisheries enforcement officers will reduce the effectiveness of fisheries protection across the three regions of south-east, south-west and northern areas, including the upper Severn, and, particularly, on the cross-border working on both sides of the River Severn, and with the Wye and its tributaries, crossing again the England-Wales border?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member for his question and for his earlier correspondence again on this important issue? In terms of tackling this, and making sure we reduce and prevent the impact of any pollution of any kind or any instance within our river basins across Wales, wherever that may be, it's important that we work in partnership with stakeholders, with Welsh Water and Hafren Dyfrdwy and with Natural Resources Wales. And this, of course, is something that I'm happy to monitor very closely, going forward, to ensure that we get the outcomes that we need.

Antibiotics in Agriculture

Lynne Neagle AC: 6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the use of antibiotics in agriculture? OAQ53093

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Control of antimicrobial resistance is a priority of the Wales animal health and welfare framework. Across the UK, antibiotic usage in farmed animals has fallen from 62 mg/kg in 2013 to 37 mg/kg in 2017. This has been achieved by adopting preventive medicine and keeping animals in conditions that promote their health.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. And, of course, reducing the use of antibiotics for both people and animals is crucial if we are to defend ourselves against the threat of antibiotic resistance. The Responsible Use of Medicines in Agriculture Alliance has recently raised concerns about the sufficiency of the data that's available, particularly for beef, sheep and dairy farmers. Given the very significant threat that antibiotic resistance poses to public health, what more can Welsh Government do to ensure that we have all the data that we need to drive improvements in this area?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Lynne Neagle, for that question. In Welsh Government, we do take a one-health approach to address human, animal and environmental aspects of the AMR threat together. We do currently only have high-level UK data on antibiotic sales and developing sector-specific antibiotic usage data for Wales is absolutely a priority for the next AMR five-year plan, and I know we have two veterinary delivery partners working here in Wales with our farms to lead the way in setting up a group to co-ordinate the work that they do on AMR control. I know, for the first time, they've produced information on the prescribing of antibiotics for farm animals in Wales, and they're using that now for benchmarking and sharing of best practice.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, as you've just stated, antibiotic use does need to decline, without a shadow of a doubt, but it also has an effective role, obviously, in looking after animal health and well-being. There is a balance to be struck. What exercises have Farming Connect in particular undertaken to promote awareness around antibiotic use in the agricultural community? And if there hasn't been an organised campaign through the Farming Connect network, would you consider instigating such a campaign, because I find very often once people realise the impact and what measures they can take, they are more than willing to engage in that process, because there's a benefit all-round for everyone?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I absolutely agree with you on that last point, and that's certainly my experience. Farming Connect have been prioritising the responsible use of antibiotics in animals and, crucially, how to avoid the use of them. So, there has been—I'm not sure if it's a specific campaign, I think it's just part of their everyday business. But what they've been doing is working with people so that they can prevent the need for antibiotics further down the line by preventing disease in the first place. I think everybody recognises the impacts of leaving AMR unchecked would be wide-ranging. They'd be extremely costly, not just in financial terms, but also in terms of our global health and environmental well-being, for instance.

Climate Change

Caroline Jones AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline how changes to planning regulations can help tackle climate change? OAQ53083

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Last week, I published a new version of 'Planning Policy Wales', which has a clear focus on decarbonisation. PPW establishes hierarchies for energy and transport to promote renewable energy generation over fossil fuel extraction and to encourage walking and cycling over motor vehicle-based transport.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Planning and building regulations aimed at improving the energy efficiency of new-build homes require homes to be so well insulated that they require little heating. However, as a result of climate change, the UK is set to experience more frequent heatwaves, summers like this year are thirty times more likely. During the summer, many new-build properties overheated and led to increased demand for air conditioning. Cabinet Secretary, how will your Government ensure thatplanning and building regulations take account of our changing climate and don't lead to increasing energy demand?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it's very important that we do, certainly, address that issue. I think you make a very good point about the issues that we faced during the last summer. And I think it's very important that we don't build houses now that will have to be retrofitted 25 years down the line, even that we're coping with historical housing already. So, I mentioned that I've brought forward a new 'Planning Policy Wales'—PPW10—last week and that does very much have a clear focus on that energy efficiency to which the Member refers.

Angela Burns AC: I'd be interested to know—. I support the whole issue of being more energy efficient; for a long time, I've been saying we should be following the Merton principles and, with every new property that we build, we should have automatically put into it ground source heating or some other way of being able to offset our carbon emissions. How, though, using these regulations, are you going to be able to square the circle of improving our climate emissions, but, at the same time, ensure that our prices for building houses do not spiral out of control, because we have too many people in Wales who are so desperately in need of appropriate homes?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think the Member raises a very important point about balance, and, certainly, in my discussions with my colleague, the Minister for Housing and Regeneration—we meet with the developers, for instance, and obviously, they're very concerned that anything we bring forward will have an impact on cost. But I think it's really important that we look at how we build our new houses; how we take into consideration decarbonisation; how we take into consideration our climate change. You'll be aware we passed new regulations in this Chamber last week, where we set legally binding targets for Wales, and obviously, housing has a big part to play in helping us achieve those targets.

The Production of Fruit and Vegetables

Jenny Rathbone AC: 8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to increase the production of fruit and vegetables in Wales? OAQ53096

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Through Tyfu Cymru and Farming Connect, we are seeking to build the capacity and capability of the Welsh horticultural sector. Working with our supply chain partners, we are preparing growers to adapt to future environmental challenges and position themselves to capitalise on the growth potential of the sector.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We currently produce 60 per cent of our own food and a lot fewer fruit and vegetables are produced in this country. Whilst we have absolutely no idea what the outcome of the Brexitnegotiations is going to be, it seems to me that we need to prepare for the possibility of the worst-case option of a 'no deal' Brexit, which, of course, would instantly cut us off from our fresh fruit and vegetables. So, in the light of that serious threat to our food security, I wondered what the Government is doing to promote things like the hydroponic system developed by a Cardiff University graduate, Adam Dixon, who has patented something called Phytoponicsin Aberystwyth. Using a small greenhouse, they've grown 2 tonnes of tomatoes right up until November, which, to me, is a very important example to farmers who tell me, 'We can't produce vegetables and fruit in this country, because our weather isn't good enough, because our soil isn't appropriate.' It seems to me that that is a demonstrable example of how wecan indeed produce our own fresh fruit and vegetables to enable us to service our schools, our hospitals, and, indeed, all our tourist businesses, as well as our local population.
So, I just wondered what the Government is doing to build on the success of Phytoponics. Adam is now going to be representing Europe at the global climate action summit in San Francisco because of the excellence of his work, which, obviously, hopefully, many other countries will build on. But it seems to me that this is something that Wales needs to do as well if we're going to counter the proposals to sell rubbish food from the United States.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You referred to the possibility of a 'nodeal'Brexit, and, certainly, we are doing a great deal of work around food supplies. The Welsh Government is a member of the food chain emergency liaison group that has been convened by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, because I think we do recognisethere may be a more limited choice of fresh fruit and vegetables because of possible disruption to imports from the EU.
I think horticulture is one areawhere we do have opportunities to make some real progress. It was very interesting to hear about the piece of work you referred to, and Adam—I would be very interested in hearing more about that. What we do within our food and drink action plan, the current one and the one that we're currently bringing forward to support the one that we've had, in ensuring that our food and drink—. I think there are very ambitious targets within that, and as you know, we've already reached the 2020 target. So, what we want to do within that is support horticultural growers to make sure that they can play their part, and one of our priorities is to support that particular industry and increase horticultural crop production by 25 per cent. That would, then, allow much greater self-sufficiency.

Mark Reckless AC: Does the Cabinet Secretary welcome how much more competitive our fruit and vegetable farmers have become against European producers with the lower exchange rate?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think that might have lulled them into a bit of a false sense of security, certainly some of the farmers I've spoken to over the past couple of years. I've been to a couple of really good horticultural farms. I was in one in west Wales during the summer, and it was wonderful to see the abundance of fruit and veg that they produce. As I say, it is part of our strategy to support them to increase that product by 25 per cent.

Marine Conservation and Biodiversity

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government efforts to promote marine conservation and biodiversity in Wales? OAQ53085

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government is promoting marine biodiversity through delivery of its international and national obligations. This includes completing our contribution towards an ecologically coherent and well-managed network of marine protected areas, in line with the UK marine strategy and the Convention for the Protection of the Marine Environment of the North-East Atlantic.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. I wanted, really, Cabinet Secretary, to bring your attention to the fact that we could be on the cusp of a new industry for Wales, and the workings of Seaweed Forum Wales, knowing that seaweed aquaculture is good for the economy and, indeed, good for the ocean. The concept: although Wales has a long and proud tradition of harvesting seaweed from the wild and using it primarily as a food and fertiliser, it has never been commercialised as the basis of developing a viable industry across various supply and value chains, and there's a theory that we could be losing out. Some of the benefits of taking this project forward are: climate change targets—seaweed aquaculturehas the potential to reduce carbon, reduce agricultural emission, and protect shores from erosion; employment diversification and the opportunityfor fishermen to diversify into a growing market; inward investment, promoting, indeed, supply value chain opportunities—it's a game changer for Welsh industry, as supply-side stimulus for a new set of subsectors; competitiveness; Welsh processors of food, drink, pharmaceuticals, nutraceuticals, green proteins; it's got massive potential for export earnings; and partnership—the triple helix of industry, academia and Government. So, what steps will you take forward, as our Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that aquaculture in Wales is looked upon as perhaps a new potential and a growing industry? Will you work with those agencies working in this field?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think aquaculturealready has a very exciting place within our sector, and certainly I'd be very happy—. What you just read out ticks all the boxes, if you like, so I'd be very happy to work with people to take that forward.

Permitted Development Rights

Russell George AC: 10. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on amending permitted development rights in Wales? OAQ53080

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Consultation on the amendment and consolidation of the permitted development Order closed on 28 October. Officials are currently analysing the responses, and we intend to bring forward legislation in 2019, extending permitted development rights to support the roll-out of electric car charging, next generation telecommunications networks, and renewable energy development.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. Do you recognise that the Welsh Government has a role to play in creating the right planning conditions for mobile phone operators to overcome, of course, the challenging business case of rural coverage here in Wales, where the population is sparse in many areas and costs are much higher due to limited availability of power supply and transmission links? Can I ask what considerations you've given to the extension of permitted development rights, as has already occurred in England and Scotland?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes. I do think, absolutely we have a role. So, we've had the broad consultation on new permitted development rights, and that included mobile phone infrastructure. As I say, that closed in September. It proposed changes to mast height, mast width, and the emergency use of mobile telecommunications. I’m considering whether to bring forward an amendment Order. That would be made in January and then come into force in the spring.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Questions to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip

Item 4 on the agenda is questions to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip, and question 1 is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Superfast Broadband

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure a greater roll-out of superfast broadband in Aberconwy? OAQ53091

Julie James AC: Yes. In our continued roll-out of fast fibre broadband, we have identified around 3,773 premises across the region that could potentially see connectivity coverage under the new initiative. Assistance with connectivity also continues with our Access Broadband Cymru and ultrafast connectivity voucher schemes.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: [Inaudible.]—concerns to you regarding individual properties and in some instances, you've been able to help me. I know the figure of 96 per cent sounds really good, actually, but if some of the 4 per cent are in your constituency, and they're living next door to people who do have this superfast broadband, it gives them very, very little consolation. You did attend a very packed broadband surgery in my constituency, and you did announce that you were going to be bringing phase 2 forward. We had your recent statement, but I’m being asked all the time, 'Why are you not rolling out the next phase?' It’s a case of, 'Well, the Welsh Government says one thing, but does another.'
I have got schoolchildren who cannot do their homework. I've got farmers who cannot go online. I've got whole communities, actually, in some of my more rural, isolated parts who just believe that it’s a bit of a myth and a dream that they are ever going to get superfast broadband. So, at what stage are you going to show some commitment and make that new announcement going forward? And, you know, if not, communicate far better. We know the first roll-out was a farce in terms of information. We had it coming forward, but people didn't know when or how. And I just feel that you could do more to engage with those in those populations now that do not have it at all, because, right now, they're very, very despondent with your Government over this.

Julie James AC: Right, well, thank you for that, I think. The meeting was indeed packed. I did explain at great length—as I have at all of the meetings around Wales that I've attended, and I think I've been almost to every constituency now—that the big problem is that this is not regarded as infrastructure; this is still regarded as the procurement of a luxury product. And so, we have to go through a very complex process, including with Broadband Direct UK, to get state aid cover for what we do. And, as I explained in the meeting, would that I could. If I had the power to roll it out as infrastructure, then I would be doing that, but we do not. We have to go through the process of the procurement, we have to do the open market review, we have to find out where the commercial companies are going, and we then have to procure. We have to see what the procurement brings back, and that’s brought back the 3,773 premises. We're in the process right now of identifying exactly which those premises are, and then we'll be trying to fill in the gaps for the rest of it.
Actually, since the last time I spoke about this in the Chamber—I do have a slight groundhog day feeling every time I stand up to do questions—since the last time, the UK Government has actually announced a way forward for its universal service obligation. So, it does look as if we will have some clarity on that in the foreseeable future. There are some issues with that. There is a cost cap on it, and, actually, most of the premises that you're talking about will fall outside the cost cap. So, there’s some work to be done, but I think there will be some movement around the universal service obligation that will put another string to our bow about getting there.
But, if Members do have a whole community, or actually five or six houses together that are isolated, then we'd very much like you to proactively tell us about them, because we're very happy to get our business exploitation teams out to them to see if we can get a community solution out to those communities. And those community solutions have been very effective across Wales; they can be bespoke to the particular community, and there are various arrangements for doing that. So, I encourage the Member to proactively tell us about any clusters of people who we might be able to help.
With the others, we will be able to say very shortly now exactly which premises. That will obviously identify the ones who don't get it as well, and then we'll be able to do some more proactive work with them. But, with the best will in the world, Deputy Presiding Officer, some of the premises are tens of thousands of pounds to get to, and other solutions will have to be found.

Superfast Broadband

Paul Davies AC: 2. Will the Leader of the House provide an update on superfast broadband in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OAQ53065

Julie James AC: Yes. Although we don't hold information specifically for Preseli, under the Superfast Cymruproject we providedaccess to fast fibre broadband to 54,500 premises across Pembrokeshire, delivering average speeds of 77.6 Mbps and investing over £15.8 million.

Paul Davies AC: Leader of the house, as you are fully aware, superfast broadband is critical for many people, particularly people running businesses and people living alone who rely on it as a lifeline. On 23 October you said that you would provide us with details of who would be next able to access superfast broadband. In fact, you said, and I quote,
'I am hoping that, within the next month, we will be able to release those details to Assembly Members so that they can contact people in their constituency and let them know where they are in the programme.'
Given this particular statement, could you now give us an update and tell us when this information will be forthcoming for the benefit of people living in my constituency who want to install superfast broadband as soon as possible?

Julie James AC: It was a hope. I thought it was a hope that I could be relatively secure about, but actually it's turned out to be way more complex, with the negotiations between ourselves and the various other members of the state aid provision issue. So the procurement has just turned out to be much more complex than we had hoped in the first place. We are hoping, as I just said in response to Janet Finch-Saunders, to be able to have that information very soon now. I know I sound a little bit like groundhog day myself in saying that, but we do very much hope to have that. We want to be really specific about it, so that we don't have the same problems we had before with people falling out of the programme. We do want to be specific, so I do hope we will have that information very shortly.
And I would encourage the Member, because I know you have communities in your area as well who could come together and perhaps get it faster—a faster connection I mean, rather than faster in time—using the voucher schemes. We are just working to see what we can do alongside the UK gigabit voucher scheme as well, so that we enhance the system so that people in Wales have a little bit more access to it. But, I would encourage people to be proactively in touch with us if you do have those communities, or communities of business, so that we can work together to pool the vouchers to see what we can do.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Last week I met a group of family farming businesses, about 20 businesses altogether, at Trecelyn Isaf farm in Eglwyswrw. They highlighted to me some of the issues for farming businesses that I actually, to be honest, hadn't thought of, if they can't get access to really high-quality broadband, and that included not being able to use the best technology to regulate their use of inputs—all of those sorts of things.
In the light of what you've said to the Chamber before about being prepared to meet people with specific concerns, I've invited those businesses who've had those issues to write to me. If we find that we've got a geographical cluster, can I invite you to come and meet them and see what innovative solutions we might be able to give? Because I was particularly struck by the potential benefits to the environment. It's obviously good for their businesses if they're restricting their inputs, because it costs them less money, but it also has potential benefits to the environment to make sure that there's less risk of spills and things like that. So I very much hope that, if we do get a sufficient number, you will come to meet them. If it is one business here and one business there, perhaps I'll write to you with the details.

Julie James AC: It's worth looking at a cluster of people even if they're quite geographically spread. It's surprising what can be done with some of the technologies, and precision agriculture is one of the really big uses of this, so we have a number of examples of communities across Wales where one farmer has been connected and has been able to broadcast the signal, for example, to a number of other farmers. That would allow all kinds of precision agriculture techniques, including smart tractors, precision fertiliser and spraying and all that sort of stuff, which is incredibly interesting when you see it set out. We're very keen on that.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I have no idea whether I will be the Minister in charge of this in the next few weeks, but I will say that, rather than waiting for a Minister, whether it's me or not—and if it is me, I'd be more than happy to come—there is a team of people who are expert in this who can go through the detail. So if you write in to my office, they will make sure that the team itself is in touch, and I think you'll find that you have a very good meeting with that team of people, who are very skilled in getting the group together and explaining what can and can't be done within the project. We've had good success across Wales.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

We now turn to spokespeople's question. The first this afternoon is Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Leader of the house, the Equality and Human Rights Commission report 'Is Wales Fairer?' states that domestic abuse continues to be under-reported. It is a sad fact that more domestic violence offences are committed than are reported to and recorded by the police.In view of this, does theleader of the house sharemy concernthat the inspectorate of constabularyhas found that two Welsh police forces failed to record 8,400 crimes in the last four years, including 110 domestic abuse cases?

Julie James AC: Yes, we know that a lot of domesticabuse is hidden. We do knowthat people don't come forward and that there are inconsistenciesof evidence across the piece. So, we work very hard with the police and crime commissioners, and actually with the lead police andcrime commissioner, who is an ex-colleague that you'll all be familiar with, Jeff Cuthbert, who's taken the lead in this regard for the police forces around the right procedures, identification of and encouragement of people to come forward and then the right processes.
And one of the things that the national advisers have been advising us on in their now first year of office is to make sure that we have consistency across the piece in Wales, because a lot of these services are delivered by thirdsector organisations. And so, they're looking to see that we have a consistency of service, so that, just to give you an example, if you show up somewhere as a victim of domestic abuse—if you show up on a Wednesday morning in Ceredigion, you would get onto the same pathway as if you show up on a Friday night in the Heath hospital accident and emergency department. And making sure that you have that consistency approach across the piece is very much where we're going, and we have good co-operation with the police forces. But the work is still very much ongoing.
We know that there's under-reporting. We're very pleased that the figures are coming up. Deputy Presiding Officer, it's always difficult to know whether the rise in figures is because there's a rise in incidents or whether it's a rise in people coming forward and being more secure in the system, and I suspect it's a little of both in some areas. We're analysing the figures to make sure that we take the right lesson from the data.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for that answer, leader of the house.'Is Wales Fairer?' also mentionedthat
'A study of specialist domestic abuse services in Wales reported funding cuts in nearly half of specialist services for 2016/17'.
It goes on to say about
'a lack of adequate funding for specialist children and young people’s domestic abuse support services being of particular concern'.
What action is the leader of the housetaking to ensure that adequate funding is provided to ensure this essential service is maintained in Wales?

Julie James AC: So, what happens with our Act—the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015—is that that drives a statement by local authorities as to a needs assessment in their area, and the needs assessment is then how we plan the services, and that's in its infancy. We'veonly just had the first iteration of that. The whole propose of that Act is to overcome some of the issues that you're talking about. So, we have aneeds assessment for the first time againstwhich we can assess the funding, and we also have a sustainable funding working group, becausewe want to make sure that the fundinggroups are not set against each other in competition for diminishing resources, but actually work together to maximise the amount that they can do with the fundingavailable. And that is chaired by one of the national advisers,Yasmin Khan. We have just delayed the start of that becauseall of the stakeholder groups involved in it asked us to do so, so that they could make sure that the piece of work that we did was sustainable into the future.Yasmin, I know, has been chairing that group very effectively and will be reporting early next year on its outcome.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you. Last year, Welsh Women's Aid expressed concern about the lack ofrefuge-based support for survivors of domestic abuse and their children. Particular reference was made to women from ethnic minorities, disabled women and, in a small number of cases, for men. At present, data on the number of refuges is not collected or held centrally in Wales. Does the leader of the house agree with me that this data should be collected, and what actionwill she take to rectify this?

Julie James AC: So, that's very much part of the same piece that I was just talking about in terms of the assessment of need. And what we're looking to do is exactly that, to make sure that we have a proper assessment of need across all of Wales, and that we provide servicesbased on that needs assessment and not just—. These services, generally, grew up becausegot together back in the 1970s and 1980s and started something because they saw the need locally, and we've continued in that sort of fashion. But the whole point of the Act that the Assembly passed, and the needs assessmentassociated with that, is to get that proper all-Wales picture, so that we can plan the services according. In fact, last week, I launched the perpetrator standards. So, we're trying to standardise the service, so that people, as I say, receive the same service regardless of where they are and which pathway theypitch up in.

Thank you. Plaid Cymru spokesperson—Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed AC: We've had quite a few questions on superfast already today, but obviously we know that we had a statement from Superfast Cymru outlining a range of successes in the superfastprogramme, and I think it's worth noting there has been a big increase in the number of properties with access to superfastbroadband of up to 34 Mbps, so you have made progress in the area. Technology, as ever, moves fast, so I'd like to ask what forward planning is being undertaken to expand on speed and bandwidth capacity as we move forward. Capacity is a really important issue, because people will want access from more than one device, businesses will need to be running on a certain bandwidth, so I'm wanting to understand, in terms of capacity in particular, what you're doing in this regard.

Julie James AC: We very much followed the superfastroll-out programme with a business exploitation programme and the domestic exploitation programme—some of you may have seen there's a big yellow cartoon lightning bolt that arrives on your village green with a big sign—and then we run programmes for people to come and understand how to get the best out of the service that's arrived and how to assess the need for their business in particular. So, domesticuse—unless you've got an enormous number of teenage children who all want access at the same time, it's fine at 24 Mbps or so, but most businesses have a bespoke need. And so one of the things with any new technology exploitation is making sure that the businesses do their business assessment of their need and the need for them to invest in the service correctly, because they need to understand what exponential growth can come from some of the accesses.
The business exploitation team follow the superfastroll-out around—doing two authorities at a time across Wales, in fact. We write out to everybody in the authority, and that alerts them to the fact that they could get it and, occasionally, it alerts us to the fact that we think somebody could get it and they haven't. And just in terms of proportion on that, we write thousands of the letters out and we get tens back. But it is a useful checker, if you like—an additional checker. But Bethan Sayed is absolutely right, because sometimes people wait for the superfastprogramme to come, they get 30 Mbpsor so, but they run a large caravan site or a big farm business and, actually, they need 100 Mbps in oder to get their business need. So, the system is capable of delivering that, but they have to understand what they require and then we can help them get the best internet service provider, for example, and a system with planning for that. So, I'm very much aware of the point she raises, and it's a really good point, and so we are trying to futureproof the system in that way.
And the last thing to say is there has been a really good report by south Wales university—the University of South Wales; I always say that the wrong way around—about what happens to small businesses when they exploit the internetproperly and what happens when they don't. I've mentioned it a number of times, and it's in the Members' library. It is worth having a look, because it really is quite stark, the difference, and so we use that as a way to encourage people to understand that the investment is worth it for their business. It might seem like a lot, but it's actually worth it for the business growth.

Bethan Sayed AC: Okay, thank you. I'll make sure to get a copy of that.
Just moving on, I think we have to look at technology across the piece, as broadband as a stand-alone option is often not enough for many people, even with increases in capacity. Can you tell us how you're planning to improve 4G connectivity? Last year, a report by Which? showed that Wales had the worst 4G coverage in the UK, with 4G customers in Wales on average only able to get a 4G signal just about 35 per cent of the time. We're now looking at the point where we are having 5G being introduced, but we risk being left behind here in Wales because we're still not accessing 4G, and therefore that could mean that many people are being left with technology that is obsolete. So, how are you going to address this to help us as a Welsh nation?

Julie James AC: Yes, that's a huge matter of frustration to me, I have to say, because that's to do with the way that the UK Government sold the spectrum and the geographical coverage they either did or didn't put on it. So, it's clearly inadequate. I've mentioned many times in this Chamber my frustration at not being able to get them to see that having a single provider across 98 per cent of the land mass of Wales, which is what we have, is obviously useless. 'Come to my brilliant tourism business, but don't come unless you're on a particular network'—I mean, clearly that doesn't work. So, we've been working very hard with a range of other authorities in the north of England and Scotland who all have the same problem. Because outside the conurbations, we really need roaming so that you can connect to any network.
The other thing is that people don't realise they can still make a 999 call. So, we've had some examples where somebody could have made that call, because their phone will connect to any network if they dial 999, even if it says 'no service' on it, because it might be their particular networkthat has no service. There is a network right across Wales for 98 per cent coverage, but it's just not good enough, so we are making that point.
Actually, one of the other things to say is that, as we roll the broadband out and as we get Wi-Fi signals being broadcast from much of our network, of course,Wi-Ficalling becomes available to people who wouldn't get 4G, so there is a back-up from the broadband roll-out. One of the reasons that we've structured the second lot of superfast the way we have is that we were targeting people who didn't have broadband or 4G, so that they couldn't get on the network in any way, and that's very specifically where those lots have been stated to go.
Two other things to say on that, though: we have lobbied very hard about the way that the next sets of spectrum—both low spectrum and high spectrum—are to be sold, because we do think the UK Government needs to understand that that's a problem, and we are joined in that by a large number of the big city mayors, oddly enough, and some of the consortium of local authorities in north England and in Scotland, because we all have the same problem.

Bethan Sayed AC: Well, that's always a problem when there are monopolies in the system, and we need to try and get to grips with that and ensure that the UK Government hear us loud and clear here in Wales.
I would just like to finish by raising the issue of net neutrality. It's been around a year since net neutrality rules were repealed in the United States, potentially allowing providers to give preferential speeds for certain partner sites—I don't want to name them here today, but I'm sure you can think of them—while lowering speeds for competitors.
The EU has strong open access laws. However, there is nothing stopping the UK Government from altering those laws when those powers return from Brussels. We're already seeing a creeping increase of preferential treatment of certain platforms on mobile devices. I don't want to see anything like this happening when it comes to net neutrality. Have you considered what you will be doing on this agenda as a Welsh Government? Obviously, if there will be a US trade deal they might want to see something like this happening, but this will penalise people and will create more of a market in an already very marketised area. So, what are you doing, potentially, to mitigate this?

Julie James AC: We've been making representations to that effect, and that's a very good example of one of the benefits that the European Union brings—the other one, of course, is roaming right across Europe, which doesn't necessarily happen after Brexit. So, very much as part of our preparedness for it, we are lobbying the UK Government and actually having negotiations with Europe itself about how best to have that interoperability, I believe the actual phrase is—so, how we can, basically, pass those laws into our law. We're very actively pursuing that.
Net neutrality is, actually, very likely to be a subject at the World Trade Organization as well, because it's becoming a big thing across the world. So, we are keeping a weather eye on that, because we have very much benefited from the European Union standards in this regard.

Thank you. The UKIP spokesperson—David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First, leader of the house, can I make reference to your statement on the Superfast Cymru scheme, and acknowledge the success of the implementation of such a massive and mammoth task, and, indeed, the increased provision of mobile phone provision that you've had?
Following on a little from Bethan Sayed's comments, I know that you will be aware that 5G technology is already starting to outdate some of the advances made in Wales's information technology and mobile infrastructure. So, can you please update us on the current status of the preparations for implementation of 5G in Wales? Would it be possible to provide some information on the sources of technology that will be used to implement that roll-out?

Julie James AC: Yes, 5G is very interesting, because, really, you need 4G in order to be able to advance to it. So, what we've been doing is working to make sure that people don't have to start with nothing and then climb up the ladder, so that they can leapfrog it. There are lots of issues there, so we have a number of test beds around Wales—Cardiff is actually part of the national test-bed programme. We've appointed Innovation Point, which is a wholly owned Welsh Government company, to advise, stimulate and co-ordinate activity on 5G in Wales, including opportunities to secure funding from the test bed and trials fund from the UK Government. So, we're very actively involved in that.
I will say, though, that 5G is not the only thing that's worth investing in. There's another technology, which is a low-frequency technology, called the long-range wide-area network—LoRaWAN—which we're also very keen on investing in. That, for example, would be very fundamental to precision agriculture. I had a great visit up to Glynllifoncollege the other day to look at what they're doing with precision agriculture. And although it's not the flavour-of-the-month technology, it's still very importanttechnology to Wales, and we're very much a world leader in it.

David J Rowlands AC: Thank you for that answer. I'm sure that the leader of the house is aware of the international concerns regarding Chinese companies, who are said to be world leaders in fifth generation technology. What steps will the leader of the house be taking to ensure that the issues that have led to the USA and Australia banning some Chinese product suppliers do not occur in Wales?

Julie James AC: We've been very much part of the UK Government's competition, where business-led consortia, including local authorities and academia, can apply to get a slice of £25 million-worth of funding, as I said, from DCMS. And that's looking to support the development of all of the technology; it's not just the connectivity—it's all the widgets, if you like, that go with it. So, 5G doesn't go very far; it's a wide signal that doesn't go very far, so you need a lot of widgets on street furniture and so on. So, we're very keen on making sure that the supply chains are viable here in Wales and in the UK overall, and that we aren't reliant too much on external technology. Indeed, Deputy Presiding Officer, it's been this Government's aim always to fill in gaps in supply chains for Welsh companies where at all possible, and this is clearly an opportunity.

David J Rowlands AC: Again, I thank you, but I think you'll see that the thrust of my questioning is that, for instance, the European Commission Vice-President, Andrus Ansip, has said he was concerned that Chinese technology companies were required to co-operate with Chinese intelligence services on things such as mandatory back doors, which are designed to allow access to encrypted data. With those concerns in mind, leader of the house, can you assure us that all third-party suppliers will be thoroughly scrutinised?

Julie James AC: Yes, indeed, and we belong to the national cyber security network, and we are committed to the national cyber security strategy. I've had a number of very good meetings with the National Cyber Security Centre, and they've visited us twice to make sure that our cyber resilience plans are in order. The Cabinet Office has made funding available to Wales for cyber resilience, and we've allocated money to projects across Wales to strengthen cyber resilience through our cyber resilience revenue grant, which is quite hard to say. We've also awarded funding to the Welsh Local Government Association for the 22 local authorities to achieve the cyber essentials plus certification, to support them in strengthening cyber security within their organisations to a recognised Government standard. So, we're very keen on making sure that we have all of the cyber resilience in place to ensure that we don't have the sorts of problems that David Rowlands is outlining there.

Disabled People

Caroline Jones AC: 3. How does the Welsh Government ensure that disabled people in Wales receive equal treatment and opportunities? OAQ53090

Julie James AC: Our new framework, 'Action on Disability: the Right to Independent Living', currently out for consultation, sets out priority actions under way across Welsh Government to tackle key barriers to equality of opportunity identified by disabled people themselves. This includes transport, employment, education, health, housing and accessibility.

Caroline Jones AC: Leader of the house, I have received representations from constituents expressing dismay about their inability to travel on public transport with friends, because they all need wheelchair spaces. And, if you're lucky, most public transport has one or two spots for wheelchairs. Most of us take for granted the ability to travel together, yet disabled people in Wales are being denied that right. Leader of the house, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that disabled people can enjoy the same rights to travel together that the rest of us take for granted?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm very aware of that as an issue; it's been raised with me by a number of constituents as well. We are having ongoing discussions with various public service travel operators to see what can be done about that; often on a bus, for example, there's one wheelchair space, not two, and, if you are travelling with two people together, they often have to catch subsequent buses, and so on. So, I'm very much aware of that. It is part of our consultation, and it is something that the current economy Secretary and I have talked about a great deal. I will certainly be recommending in the new Government that we take forward action with our public services to ensure that people do have equal access. Often, people have more than one disabled person in their family, and more than one disabled child, and it is a big issue for them; it can be very expensive otherwise. So, it's certainly something on our radar.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that answer to Caroline; that was most helpful. Almost a year ago, I held a short debate based on Bridgend coalition of disabled people's suggestion for a 'scores on the doors' system, which would help businesses and public services to display details about the type of accessibility that they have for disabled people. Groups and organisations—including yourself, leader of the house—have been supportive of the Disability Confident campaign. Julian John, who, as you know, as a mutual constituent, has been a real poster boy for this. [Interruption.] Well, we share him; he's fantastic.

Julie James AC: Yes, we share him out.

Suzy Davies AC: Yes. Could you tell me whether Welsh Government has made any progress on the suggestion on the 'scores on the doors' idea and also what steps Welsh Government is taking so that it itself can become a Disability Confident employer?

Julie James AC: Yes. So, on the second one, I'm very keen on doing that. I've had several conversations with the Permanent Secretary around the civil service, and I know that the Commission has also had a couple of conversations about it in terms of becoming Disability Confident. We're very keen to do that. The difficulty with this is that you need to get a standard in place. So, you can declare that you're a Disability Confident employer, but you need to be able to demonstrate a standard, and the 'scores on the doors' thing has the same problem. So, the issue is that we have to develop the standard against which you score the properties. So, we are very interested in doing it. We're working very hard with Disability Wales and others to work out what those standards would be in order to have some system of judging yourself against them. So, I'm very keen on doing it but I don't think the standards are in place for us to be able to basically do it, so we need to just put the work in. It will be part of the consultation, and it's part of a piece of work that we need to do to make sure that everybody is happy as to what the standard against which you're scoring people is so that we can all go forward on the same—basically off a level, a level playing field. I mixed about four different analogies there, but you understood what I was saying.
So, basically, it's a great idea but we have to develop the standards against which we judge people in order to give them the score in the first place, so we're in the process of doing that. That's a simpler way of putting it. [Laughter.]

Leanne Wood AC: One of the main findings of the Equality and Human Rights Commission Wales 2018 report is that disabled people are falling further behind and many are being denied their right to independent living. The report also found that there are gaps in educational attainment and employment, and those gaps are widening. Now, contrary to Labour Party policy, this Labour Government is doing away with the Welsh independent living grant, and people who are in receipt of this grant are concerned that they will lose out, that their support will be cut by local authorities that are already struggling with reduced budgets. Will you commit to ensure that no-one loses out when local authorities take over the paying of this grant from March next year, and will you undertake to reverse these changes, should it transpire that individuals do end up losing money?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm actually very happy to commit to that. There's certainly no intention whatsoever that any person, any individual, will be any worse off as a result of the transition. Most people should be better off, and people should be at the very least the same, so I'm very happy to undertake that. I know that, in our final budget proposals, we are looking to guarantee that. My experience in my constituency has been that people are reluctant to engage in case they suffer a detriment from it, so we're very keen to ensure that people feel confident in engaging, because we are very keen to ensure that guarantee or whatever you want call it—warranty; I don't know what the right word for it is—that no person would be worse off. People would be at the very least the same, and, actually, we think that the majority of people will be better off, so I'm very happy to give that guarantee.

The Review of Gender Equality

Jenny Rathbone AC: 4. How will the Welsh Government's review of gender equality help to improve outcomes for Welsh women found guilty of criminal offences? OAQ53097

Julie James AC: We've been very consistent in the communications regarding the importance of gender equality, and I'm pleased to note that the draft blueprints for youth justice and female offending that have been developed will contribute to ensuring greater equality for those within or at risk of entering the criminal justice system in Wales. This is particularly the case in the draft female offending blueprint, which the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services will be speaking about just later this afternoon.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. I look forward to that statement. Leader of the house, I'm sure you'll be aware that women are currently discriminated against at every level of the criminal justice system. They're more likely to be arrested for offences that would warrant a warning if they were men, more likely to be refused bail, simply because they can't find anybody who is prepared to stand bail for them, they're more likely to be in prison for non-violent offences, and they're more likely to lose their home. As a result of women going to prison, over 17,000 children lose their home and are taken into care because it's women who look after the children, even if their men go to prison. All this, of course, was captured in the Corston report, which was published nearly 12 years ago, and there are very compelling arguments as to why we need to do something different. So, I hope that the statement we're about to hear is going to address the urgent need for women's centres, where women can get the services they need to address their offences. Often, they are both victims as well as offenders.At least half have been abused as a child and it's a vicious circle because it's the children of offenders who are more likely to become offenders. So, I hope that we will have—. I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary's statement and hope that we can take a progressive way forward and address this issue.

Julie James AC: Indeed, and the Cabinet Secretary and I have had a very good working relationship over this and we've been working very hard on it over the last couple of years, actually, haven't we? And I think that the statement is very reflective of that. We're very keen that women are deflected from prison or the criminal justice system where at all possible, that we work hard with the judiciary, including the magistrates, to ensure that they aren't given—there's no unconscious bias in the sentencing. There clearly is at the moment: the statistics show clearly that women go to prison at a much lower level of crime than men, and the Cabinet Secretary and I have had many discussions about the issue around losing family and children and what happens in the vicious cycle you describe. And I'm sure he'll be covering off all of those issues in his statement later on today.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Leader of the house, in February, the former chief inspector of prisons called for a women's prison to be opened in Cardiff to allow female prisoners to serve their sentences in Wales. Lord Ramsbothamsaid it was deplorable that there is no provision in Wales and that female prisoners have to be sent to England, away from their families and their friends. I think it's not agreeable in this century, anyway. Do you agree with Lord Ramsbothamthat—? What discussions have been taking place between the Welsh Government and the Ministry of Justice on providing a women's prison for Wales, please?

Julie James AC: The Cabinet Secretary will be covering this, but I will just say, briefly, that I do not agree that we should have a women's prison in Wales, because having men's prisons in Wales has not stopped Welsh men being sent all over the UK. What we want is for women to be deflected from the criminal justice system, except in the most extreme cases of violence. So, we do not need a bigger prison that will allow us to house more women in secure accommodation. What we need is the right provision in Wales, so where somebody does need to be in secure accommodation, they are in a women's centre, where their children can also be. So, I agree with the sentiment behind what you're saying, that people should be locally housed and disrupted as little as possible, but I'm actually vehemently opposed to the building of a prison, which I think would only lead to more women being imprisoned rather than deflected from the system. But the Cabinet Secretary and I have had many robust discussions on this point, and I'm sure he'll cover it off in his statement this afternoon. [Interruption.] Spirited discussions, indeed.

Leanne Wood AC: Justice is yet to be devolved. That responsibility can't come to Wales soon enough, as far as I'm concerned. When it comes to the imprisonment of women, I very much agree with the Howard League for Penal Reform, who found that far too many women in Wales are being sent to prison and there is no facility here in this country. They say, and I quote:
'There is considerable scope to improve services and outcomes by developing a small network of women's centres in Wales and radically reducing the number of women sent to prison.'
Now, in addition to this network of women's centres, one way to radically reduce the numbers of women who are sent to prison would be to invest in probation services so that there can be real alternatives to custody. Given that probation is not devolved, and given that it's been practically half-privatised, how can you, in practical terms, influence this agenda?

Julie James AC: We have had many discussions on exactly this point. I completely agree with the Howard League for Penal Reform. I've been a fellow traveller of theirs for many, many years. And that's exactly on the point of the discussion that we've been having. We are very keen to have the criminal justice system devolved as fast as possible, including the probation services. Probation services are absolutely essential to go with that, and this deflection from prison that we're talking about, you absolutely have to have those services in place and, actually, you have to have pre-criminal justice system provision in place, which is why we're looking to strengthen the youth service provision as well, because it's a set of things that go with this.
We need to ensure that fewer children go into care as a result of their mother's imprisionment for something, as I say, no man would ever go to prison for, and that, where they have got to go to prison—or be ina secure facility, rather—they are in small, specially-built, women-centred ones close to where they live. Not just one in Wales, because that's no good if you live anywhere other than where it happens to be, but a network of those centres, exactly as Leanne Wood outlines, so that we can make sure that we get the best possible outcome not just for the women themselves, but for their children and families, who we know are impacted hugely by the wrong outcome. And I know the Cabinet Secretary—. I'm stealing his thunder a bit, because we've had this discussion—you know, we're at one on this. We completely agree with that agenda, and that's where we're trying to go with this.

5G Connectivity in Cardiff

David Melding AC: 5. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on 5G connectivity in Cardiff? OAQ53095

Julie James AC: Yes. I very much welcome the recent industry announcement declaring the planned 5G investment in Cardiff.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. Indeed, EE announced that Cardiff was one of the six UK cities that would be thefirst to get5G mobile networks. This promises to improve services, not just through personal devices, and that will be transformative, but to offer an integrated infrastructure for buildings, transport, public utilities, providing unprecedented benefits for citizens, businesses and the city. However, to see the full value of these benefits, a high level of collaboration will be needed to hardwire the technology into our city's infrastructure, and there is a danger that this could become something of an afterthought. So, what is the Welsh Government going to do to work with the likes of EE and other mobile providers to ensure that Cardiff becomes a model, not just for towns and cities across Wales, but, indeed, across the UK?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'mvery keen to do that. I've already met with the company's roll-out leader in this regard and we've been working very closely together to make sure, alongside the city deal people, that we are completely in that space. David Melding is absolutely right—5G-enabled technologies will completely transform the way in which Wales's future industries grow. If you think of the difference that the smartphone has made to the way we work, which probably none of us would have predicted fewer than three years ago, we're looking at the same kind of revolution again for 5G—things that you'll be able to do on your small device that are just out of your contemplation now.
So, we're looking to do three things: we're looking to benefit from the technology itself, but we're also looking to be producers of the widgets—that's a technical term—that produce it. So, we have the compound semiconductor cluster here in Cardiff. I don't know if Members realise quite how many of the widgets in your smartphone are actually made in Wales; very large proportions of them are. So, we're looking to be part of the supply chain that makes the thing in the first place, and to be early adopters of the technology. EE are looking to roll out their first programme in what they call the busiest parts of Cardiff—and that does actually does include the Welsh Assembly, so we'll be able to be early adopters in that regard. I'm very much looking forward to it.

Digital Transformation in the Public Sector

Paul Davies AC: 6. Will the Leader of the House provide an update on the progress of digital transformation across Pembrokeshire’s public sector? OAQ53066

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm very happy to. There has been good progress on digital transformation across Pembrokeshire’s public sector. Alongside our investment in broadband throughthe Superfast Cymru programme—. I wasgoing to say very recently, but I believe it was actually August, I met with Councillor Paul Miller, who's the cabinet member for economic and community development, I believe; he has responsibility for digital in Pembrokeshire, and we had a very good conversation about the best use of both thepublic sector broadband aggregation network and some of the superfast roll-outs in terms of exploiting public sector transformation in Pembrokeshire, and I know that the council is very keen on working with us in that regard.

Paul Davies AC: Well, I'm glad she's had a very constructive dialogue with Pembrokeshire County Council. Now, as the leader of the house is aware, schools rely on broadband to help deliver parts of the curriculum, and it'simperative that it is available to all schools across Wales. I understand that Ysgol Llanychllwydog inPembrokeshire is the only school in the area that is not able to receive broadband, and I'm advised that it is due to logistical challenges that are primarily due to the school's location within the boundaries of the Pembrokeshire national park. Given the circumstances, will the leader of the house,in conjunction with her colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Education, look at this particular case to investigate what scope is there to look at alternative provision for the school to ensure that the pupils are not disadvantaged by these logistical challenges?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm very, very well aware of the school there; it's in a very beautiful part of Pembrokeshire, andit hasa very interesting little pub with a bar in its front room just around the corner. But it is very isolated, I think it's fair to say, and part of its beauty is its isolation. We are very well aware of it; we are working very closely with the school to see what can be developed in order to get them online. But I have to say, if you know the Gwaun valley, it's logistically very problematic because not only is it very beautiful, it's steep and wooded and isolated. So, it's about the most beautiful but the most difficult topography you could possibly imagine. The school is quite little, so, in terms of the economic possibilities, it's proving a difficult nut to crack, but we are very aware of it and we are working very closely with the school and with the council to seewhat we can do to get the school onlineas fast as possible. It is the last school in Wales that we've got a problem with, though, which is great, but we do need to crack it for them.

Finally, question 7, Jack Sargeant.

Combating Violence Against Women

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the role of sport in combating violence against women? OAQ53094

Julie James AC: Yes, indeed. We know that studies show that incidents of domestic violence spike following sporting events, so I look to the sports sector to promote the firm message that violence against women is completely unacceptable and to take action within their own ranks. We should promote the positive effects and outcomes of sport and make sure that the negative aspects are well known.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'd like to thank the leader of the house for that answer, and I'm sure that she is aware, like she has rightly stated, that studies have linked major sporting events to an increase of reports of domestic violence, not to mention the violence that also isn't reported. For example, during the 2002, 2006 and 2010 football World Cups, Lancaster police force recorded a rise of domestic violence by 38 per cent on the days when England lost, and I understand this to be the case in more recent tournaments as well. Similar to that, South Wales Police have recorded increased reports when Wales play England at rugby in Cardiff, and, in recent years, the offences rose by 79 per cent, compared to the week before.
Now, it's important to remember that women don't just experience violence and abuse at the hands of their partners every day, only on the days when sport is on tv—actually, it's every day; I apologise for that. Deputy Llywydd, the wide appeal of sport, however, can be exploited to engage males to come together and support them in confrontation about these issues and the underpinning of domestic violence in conjunction with female empowerment and the pursuit of gender equality.
I've been working very closely with my grassroots football team—FC Nomads of Connah'sQuay—to promote the White Ribbon campaign. I'm also very pleased to have recently worked with the Welsh Rugby Union and with Newport County AFC, alongside my colleagues John Griffiths and Jayne Bryant. So, would the leader of the house welcome the commitment of sports organisations and clubs, and could she commit, or indeed encourage the next Minister with this in their portfolio to work alongside the Minister for sport on this very important issue? Because, Deputy Llywydd, I think Members will agree across this Chamber that, win or lose, there is no excuse for domestic violence.

Julie James AC: I absolutely congratulate many of the sporting clubs across Wales, and especially the male versions of the sporting clubs who've been very active in the White Ribbon campaign. Many of the clubs around—the Ospreys in particular, for example, and their community programme and Swansea Whites and a number of others across—. It's invidious to name them, actually, because there are large numbers of them who take part in it.
We did rerun the This IsMe and Don't Be a Bystander campaigns during the 16 days of the autumn internationals and supported, as you know, the White Ribbon campaign; you were a very prominent supporter yourself. We are looking to rerun them in the spring during the internationals again. The idea here is to get the level of awareness that we got for Kick It Out with sporting events, so that the men who are the fans understand that this is not an acceptable response to disappointment, or actually, oddly enough, exhilaration in sport, because the spike happens whether you win or lose, rather distressingly. But to emphasise the importance of sport.So, we are very aware of it; we are running the campaigns again, we've funded them to do so, and I would absolutely pay tribute to the sporting clubs who've joined in, because it's very important that young men have the right role models to know that that's not what being masculine is all about.

Thank you very much, leader of the house.

5. Business Statement and Announcement

We now move to item 5, which is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the leader of the house, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. There were several changes to this week's business. The planned oral statements on update on care for the critically ill and reforming dental services will be issued as written statements. The Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services will make an oral statement on 'Towards a distinct approach to the penal system in Wales', as we've discussed earlier. Draft business for the first three weeks of the new term is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Suzy Davies AC: In December last year, the Children, Young People and Education Committee recommended that theEducation Workforce Council be given legislative powers to impose an interim suspension Order—or, more than one. Three months later, the education Secretary asked the EWC if they would do a consultation, and the consultation deadline for that is in 10 days' time, Now, I don't know why the delay has happened here, but we are talking about a year down the line. In view of that, I wonder whether it would be possible for Welsh Government to consider expediting its response to the consultation report when that's finally published in January.
Secondly, the Public Health (Minimum Price for Alcohol) (Wales) Act 2018. The Stage 4 proceedings were in June earlier this year and Royal Assent was given in August. I wonder, early in the new term, whether the new health Secretary could give us an update on progress on filling in the gaps in that Bill. Members may remember that I was very unhappy with the quality of that particular Bill, and I think some intelligence on how those regulations are now looking and the research being done would be very welcome. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Yes, on the consultation, I'm not aware of what the delay was, I'm afraid. I'm certainly happy to look, to see, to recommend that the new Government expedites its response. I don't know how practical that is, but I'm happy to make that recommendation. On the minimum pricefor alcohol Bill, I know that the current health Secretary will be recommending to whoever his successor is, whether it's him or somebody else, that an early progress report is made, so I know that that's in the system already.

Dai Lloyd AC: Leader of the house, on 14 February, earlier this year, I proposed an individual Member debate on the issue of unadopted roads. It was a debate that saw contributions from across the Chamber and was passed unanimously. One of the outcomes of the motion was to establish a taskforce, which was done under the remit of the Cabinet Secretary for transport. After a subsequent written question from myself in April this year, the Cabinet Secretary confirmed that he was expecting the taskforceto complete its work in early 2019. Given that the taskforcewas supported by Members across the Chamber, many of us look forward to seeing the recommendations that will be put forward, but Members have heard very little in terms of any progress being made thus far. I wonder, therefore, whether the Cabinet Secretary would be prepared to provide a written statement to all Members to outline the projected completion date, and also detailing any consultation undertaken by the taskforce and an interim summary of where the taskforcehas got with its work. Thank you.

Julie James AC: I think that the Cabinet Secretary intends to keep the Senedd informed, Deputy Presiding Officer, once the taskforcehas completed its work, which—. Dai Lloyd is actually slightly ahead of me, so I think it is early 2019, and I believe that the programme has an update at that point in it.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Leader of the house, may I ask for a statement from the Welsh Government on the decision of Newport City Council to withdraw its funding for Gwentsensory and communication? This is a service for children who have vision, hearing and communication problems, which is currently funded by five councils in south-east Wales. The decision of Newport City Council to withdraw its funding has caused considerable concern among the parents and the guardians of children who benefit from these services and could undermine the whole operation. Could we have a statement on what action the Welsh Government intends to take to protect services for these wonderful children in south-east Wales, please?

Julie James AC: I know the Cabinet Secretary is in discussion with Newport council about the rationale for their withdrawal from the service, and I'm sure that she will report back to the Seneddonce those discussions are complete.

Leanne Wood AC: I'd like to raise the issue of medicinal cannabis. The relaxation of the laws regarding the prescription of medicinal cannabis as a result of the changes to the misuse of drugs legislation this year has brought about little change. This is more than likely due to the restrictive interim guidance that has been published as a result of this legislation change. The Multiple Sclerosis Society say that nothing will change in the short term for the 10,000 people in the UK living with MS who could get relief from pain and muscle spasms by using medicinal cannabis. This was brought into sharp relief during the last week, with the case of 16-year-old Bailey Williams, who has severe epilepsy that can cause him to suffer hundreds of seizures in quick succession. His family say that the condition is deteriorating rapidly. They say that medicinal cannabis would greatly improve his symptoms.
Now, Sativex may be available on the NHS in Wales, but this is only licensed for the treatment of spasticity, and then only available to a small group of people living with MS who meet the criteria. This is of no use for people like Bailey with severe epilepsy, or any other condition that might fall outside that narrow scope. I'd like to see this Government work towards ensuring that interim guidance on prescribing medicinal cannabis is reviewed and then relaxed, so that access to treatment is not so heavily restricted. We have an opportunity in Wales to take a progressive approach to the prescription of medicinal cannabis, and we should not let that opportunity fall. I've already written to the new leader of Labour, so will you ensure, as a matter of urgency, that the new First Minister takes action on this without delay, as the family cannot wait until Christmas?
I'd also like to raise the matter of an Assembly Member sharing a platform with a well-known islamophobic far-right bully in London over the weekend.Yaxley-Lennon is known to have made up news stories that have helped to spread hate against Muslims. He’s regularly incited hatred and has no place in mainstream politics. The Assembly Member in question has no shame, but his sharing of a platform with such a reprehensible and dangerous character brings shame on this Senedd and it brings shame on Wales. I suspect there will be no contrition from the Assembly Member in question, as that’s the kind of person that he is, but I would hope that action is taken to sanction him in some way for pandering to a far-right thug and his followers.
Can we have a statement from the Government condemning this action and explaining to everyone why associations of this kind aren't harmless, and also, can that statement also outline the Welsh Government’s strategy for tackling the rise of the far right in Wales?

Julie James AC: I share the Member's outrage and concern about the sharing of a platform over the weekend of an Assembly Member. It's appalling to think that somebody amongst our midst thinks that sharing a platform with, effectively, a far-right extremist is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I think most of us in this Chamber share the outrage that somebody could be seen on a platform of that sort, and I will certainly be talking to the Llywydd and the Deputy Presiding Officer about what action is appropriate to take. But I certainly share the Member’s outrage. I think all of us share it.
There is a statement scheduled for whoever has the portfolio that I currently hold on far-right extremism early in the new year, and I'm sure that that will take into account any action that comes out of this, but I'm happy to express my extreme opprobrium of his behaviour in this regard. I thought it was shameful.
In terms of medical cannabis, the Member has said that she has already written to the new leader of Welsh Labour. I'll bring it to his attention as well. I know that the current health Secretary has had a number of conversations in this regard, and she has done a good job, as always, of publicising it, but I'm very happy to bring it up with him as well.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I wonder, leader of the house, if you will ask the next Cabinet Secretary for the environment to consider making a statement to this house on the potential of licensing systems for commercial shooting businesses in Wales. I'm not an opponent of field sports, but my colleague Councillor Bryn Davies in Pennant Melangell in north Montgomeryshire, is facing a situation where a particular business, where for decades they've shot for a couple of days a week in a way that’s perfectly acceptable to the local community, are now shooting four to five days a week for protracted lengths of time, and it seems that the powers available to the local authority are not sufficient for them to restrict this. This is obviously bringing the business itself into disrepute, it’s making things very, very difficult for the neighbours, and it’s actually having an impact on neighbouring farming businesses. So I'd be very grateful if whoever is the new Cabinet Secretary for the environment could take a look at the current system for regulating these businesses. And I should stress that this is a commercial business; this is not somebody who's doing a limited amount of shooting on their own land, obviously, or they wouldn't be shooting five days a week. And I really feel this is an area where we should be able to regulate effectively.

Julie James AC: I’m not aware of the circumstances surrounding that. I wonder if Helen Mary Jones would be good enough to write a letter in, and then it will be sure to be on the top of the inbox of whoever the incoming Member is that has environment in their portfolio.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I would like to ask for two statements, if I may. First of all, I would like to request a statement on the financial crisis that is deepening, I'm afraid, in higher education in Wales, and I'd like an explanation of any plans that the Welsh Government has to review that financial situation. This week, staff at Bangor University, which has an important presence in my constituency as well, tell me that they have been receiving correspondence from the university outlining business cases for further cuts, including job losses. There are fears that up to 60 good jobs could be lost at the university. The situation clearly isn't sustainable. The quality of education and research is sure to suffer across our university sector ultimately, and I would like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary for Education how she intends to respond to that.
I would also wish to hear a statement from the new Cabinet Secretary for Finance on what should happen in the medium term in terms of the business rate relief scheme for our high streets. We have just received a statementextending that relief scheme for a further period, and I welcome that. My party has been enthusiastic, has come to agreements with Government on rate relief schemes and so on, but I'm not comfortable with the way these programmes are rolled on year to year. I've been having discussions with businesses in my constituency on the importance of business rate relief for our high streets particularly. Plaid Cymru in Arfon has been gathering a number of names on a petition and they are certainly pleased that those names on the petition have had an influence on Government. So, I wonder whether we could have a statement on what we can expect in the medium term, because year on year, despite how good any help is, isn't good enough for long-term planning.

Julie James AC: On that one, I think the Cabinet Secretary answered that quite comprehensively in his questions last week. I'm sure that when the new Government has settled, whoever the new Minister with responsibility for business rate relief is will want to outline it. We're putting it into our final budget. On the assumption the final budget passes, I'm sure the new Minister will want to outline their plans to take that forward, but the Cabinet Secretary did answer a set of quite comprehensive questions on this only last week.
In terms of the HE issue, I know that Rhun ap Iorwerth already knows that all HE institutions are autonomous institutions and responsibility for staffing matters rests entirely with the university's governing body. The Cabinet Secretary for Education allocated the sector an additional £10 million to mitigate the impact of keeping tuition fees at £9,000, and that has been included in the budget. We know that there are significant increases in student numbers as a result of our new scheme, but it is not a matter for the Government to interfere in the individual staffing decisions of universities. They are autonomous bodies, non-profit institutions serving households, and it's entirely a matter for them.

Thank you very much, leader of the house.

6. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services: An Update on the Care for the Critically Ill

Item 6, which was a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services, an update on the care for the critically ill, is to be issued as a written statement.

7. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services: Reforming Dental Services

Item 7, a statement by the same Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services on reforming dental services, is also a written statement.

8. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services: Towards a Distinct Approach to the Penal System in Wales

So we move to item 8, which is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services: towards a distinct approach to the penal system in Wales. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am very pleased to be able to make this statement this afternoon and in doing so I want to start by expressing my own personal gratitude to all of those people who've worked with me to develop and test the blueprints for youth and female offenders over many months.
People in the criminal justice system are some of our most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society. Too often people are caught up in the criminal justice system because they themselves have been failed earlier in their lives, suffered multiple adverse childhood experiences or abuse, much of which continues into their adult lives. We must end this cycle. We are letting people down, but we are also creating a demand on public services that we are simply not able to meet. But, Deputy Presiding Officer, it is always the human impact that drives me and my approach to this policy.
Like many others, and like we've heard in the Chamber this afternoon, I want to see the devolution of the criminal justice system as early as possible. I have previously set out to Members my determination to develop a distinct approach to justice in Wales, to focus on preventative action and to break this cycle. Whilst we operate within a complex legal framework, overall control of the justice system at present continues to rest with the United Kingdom Government, so today we will continue to work within the parameters of the current devolution settlement on justice whilst recognising that, in order to deliver the best for our people, we do need the devolution of this system.
To continue to make progress and improvements in all areas of criminal justice, tackling the whole system is crucial. I want us to make quicker progress in certain areas of the system, namely youth offending and female offending. We have developed new ways of working and tested new models of delivery and we have already made progress. Since last year, my officials have been working across the Government, with the United Kingdom Government, the Prison and Probation Service in Wales, police and crime commissioners, and a range of other stakeholders in justice, health and education to develop and deliver new approaches to youth offending and female offending.
On youth offending we believe thatearly intervention and prevention can help divertyoung people away from the criminal justice system. We support the trauma-informed enhanced case management approach with these more complex young people, greatly reducing the rate of first-time offending and re-offending rates. However, more young people are becoming involved in violence and more serious organised crime. The growth of county lines is one reason, but I accept that there are many other reasons for this as well.

Alun Davies AC: Our current proposals on youth offending therefore prioritise further early prevention and diversion activity, reaching younger people even earlier, before they are at risk of offending. We will further develop our approaches to pre-court diversion and enhance the support for a trauma-informed approach to working with young people at risk of offending. A holistic approach will be needed, and we will use the experience of the pathfinders to inform that work. We recognise that one size does not fit all.
At the same time, consideration must be given to how best to place a small cohort of young people,with often very complex needs, in a secure environment that is fit for purpose. Then there must be the right type of support available to help these young people recover and resettle into their communities. All of our work with young people will be underpinned by a rights-based approach, considering them as a child or young person first, not as an offender or potential offender.
There is still a disproportionately high number of women sent to prison, often for short sentences. We recognisethat this has a devastating longer term effect on the women themselves and their families. We must therefore invest more effort into pre-court diversion. I would like to see even earlier preventative measures to divert women away from the criminal justice system; to keep families together; to reduce the need for more acute services; and to reduce the longer term impact that involvement in the criminal justice system can have for these women.
The development of trauma-informed approaches and the recognition of the impact of adverse childhood experiences should be considered for female offenders and their children, taking into account the needs of those women and their families who have been affected by domestic abuse and sexual violence. We can better support women to stay in their communities and in work. We want to develop the services necessary to support women so they can avoid custody altogether. We will also work with the Ministry of Justice and the courts to reconsider the impact of sentencing policy and the impact of short sentences on women, including how this will impact on the child and family.
It is also patently clear and urgent that we need a new solution to the current female prison estate. We will need to work closely with the Ministry of Justice and the prisons and probation service, but I am clear that when a woman is committed to custody, they need to be in an environment that supports their needs; supports their rehabilitation; and supports them to remain connected to their families and their communities.
I would like to put on record my gratitude for the work of Youth Justice Board Cymru, for their role in early intervention and diversion successes, and the outreach work they are doing on sentencing and prevention.
On female offending, we have supported a women’s pathfinder programme, diverting women away from custody and providing a range of support. I would also like to express my gratitude to the partners, in particular Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service and the police and crime commissioners involved in developing the women’s pathfinder and the female offending draft blueprint, for all of their work to date.
Deputy Presiding Officer, over the coming months, with our range of partners and across Government, we will continueto develop our proposals into firm plans that will bring our blueprints into life. I would envisage that in the new year we will be in a position to publish the blueprints in full and outline our proposals in greater detail in the form of a delivery plan. I will keep Members updated as this work continues.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thankyou for your statement—one of many on a similar theme over recent weeks and months. You entitled this 'a distinct approach to the penal system in Wales', although it looks uncannily similar to the developing policy agenda across the border in England also.
As you've heard me say previously, I, in August, attended the HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales's engagement event in Wrexhamto discuss the proposals contained in the 'Strengthening probation, building confidence' consultation paper. We heard that, in Wales, the proposals consulted on are that, from 2020, all offender management services will be back within the National Probation Service and that HMPrison and Probation Service inWales will explore options for the commissioning of rehabilitative services, such as interventions and community payback.We heard that the consultation outlined plans to stabilise probation services and improve offender supervision and through-the-gate services and that, key to your statement,

Mark Isherwood AC: 'devolved responsibilities of the Welsh Government and existing partnershiparrangements in Wales make the delivery of probation services quite different to that inEngland. The legislative framework provides us with scope to develop alternative deliveryarrangements which better reflect the criminal justice context in Wales…We will then consider whether the learning from these new arrangementsis applicable to the system in England.'
Well, that was four months ago. You've mentioned the engagement you've had with a number of bodies, including HM probation and prisons; I wonder if you could add any meat to those bones in terms of the discussions around that agenda that you've subsequently had.
I'm not going to go down the party political temptations you put in front of me in areas I'm not going to name, because it will digress, perhaps, from the answer you give me, and I'll try and focus on your focus on youth and female offenders.
You rightly say that, on youth offending, you believe early intervention and prevention can help divert young people away from the criminal justice system and how best to place a small cohort of young people in custody and help those young people recover and settle into their communities. Well, the consultation document also spoke about increasing integration across prisons and probation in Wales with real input from the third sector, utilising people capital. Following that event, in fact, quite recently, I went out with the National Probation Service to meet Eagle House Youth Development, a community interest company in Bangor, to discuss their work with young people involved with or at risk of committing crime. They were picked, for example, by the jobcentre for their stand at the Royal Welsh Show this year as the lead third sector body that they were working with in helping young people who perhaps fell into those potential characteristics or might be at risk in the future. So, how will you engage with organisations such as Eagle House?
Also, last week, as you might be aware—although sadly you didn't attend—I hosted the launch of the Clean Slate Cymrutoolkit at an event celebrating the Clean Slate Cymruproject in the Pierhead, with Construction Youth Trust Cymru, the Construction Industry Training Board, and construction company BAM Nuttall, celebrating a pan-Wales project to support people with convictions into construction employment, and the launch of a guide on how the construction industry can engage with ex-offenders in prisons and communities across Wales and achieve social value by training ex-offenders, finding employment in the construction sector, work placements, skills training and much else besides.Again, have you engaged, or will you be looking to engage with these leading projects that are already making a difference and have brought together the third sector, the private sector and some Government agencies who were present on this agenda?
I will conclude by referring to your reference, quite rightly, to women sent to prison, often for short sentences, and the need to develop services to support women to avoid custody and also prioritise short sentences being outside a prison environment, but also what happens when people are placed in the current female prison estate in Wales. What engagement, therefore, have you had with the UK Government since its announcement that, instead of five community prisons for women in England and Wales, they'll trial five residential centresto help women offenders with issues such as finding work, substance misuse and so on, where those on community sentences, asrecognised clearly by UK Governmentas well as yourself, are less likely to commit further crimes than those who've served short jail terms, with a view to having one of those centresin Wales, but also accessible within Wales? Because, clearly, people living in north-east Wales would have difficulty if the centrewas located in Swansea or Cardiff, and vice versa.
Finally, in that context, as you know, in north Wales, and for much of Wales, female offenders who go to prison are sent to Styal. I only live 40-odd miles from Styal, so, for them, it's more accessible than somewhere in mid Wales or south Wales. But what actions have you undertaken, or are you undertaking, where women offenders, particularly Welsh-speaking women offenders, are in the English estate, to ensure that they get the appropriate support within the prison estate to communicate and support them on release?

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Conservatives for their questions and, I think, general support for this statement and the approach that we're taking. The Member for North Wales started his remarks by questioning whether this was a distinct approach at all, and then, in order to sustain his case, he quoted from a Ministry of Justice document, which outlined the need for a distinctive approach in Wales because of the differences in delivery, structures and policies being pursued in this country. What I will say to him is this: the privatisation of probation has not worked—it's been seen to be a failure. Many of us told the MOJit would be a failure at the time, and now the MOJ, at least in Wales, has recognised that those structures are no longer fit for purpose.
There will be a distinctive approach taken in Wales. I meet regularly with the director of the prison and probation service in Wales. We discuss how we provide a holistic approach to policy, both within the period of incarceration, but also how we then ensure that we have the through-the-gate approaches that support people in their journey out of the criminal justice system. I'm quite sure in my own mind that we're moving away from the dogma of privatisation, and what we are moving towards is a system that is more in tune with the values that will be supported, I believe, on most sides of this Chamber, where we do work with the third sector, but we work within a structure and framework that puts people and not profit first. I hope we will be able to pursue that and continue to pursue that approach.
The Conservatives asked me some questions on the female estate. If there is anybody who wishes to defend the current settlement in terms of justice, one only needs to look at the experience of female offenders to see how that system, and how that structure, fails women today in Wales, and consistently fails women across the whole of the country. Nobody—nobody—can argue that a system that is set up with no facilities for women at all in this country is in any way established to meet the needs of the people of this country.
The system that exists today is not fit for purpose—it never has been fit for purpose. What we have to do in its place is not simply go back to building prisons in the way that some people have suggested, but look for different options and different solutions. The question was to what extent I have pursued this with the Ministry of Justice. I will say to the Member that I've met Phillip Lee as the Minister, I met Edward Argar as a Minister and I've met Rory Stewart as a Minister in order to pursue all of these matters. We have agreed more than we have disagreed in terms of how we take these matters forward.
We are agreed that we need a new approach to female offending and to dealing with women in the criminal justice system. I agree with the points that were made in the previous conversation over questions—that we need a women's centre and not a women's prison, but we also need a range of facilities for women, which doesn't simply include custody. I've visited the Scottish Government and spoken with the Scottish Government about the women's centres and the facilities for women that they have there, and what I hope we are able to do is develop a holistic approach, so that the current tragedy of young people and women in the criminal justice system is something that we can consign to history.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. In the first instance, can I say that,as a former probation officer, I welcome the general direction of travel towards a criminal justice system based on rehabilitation as opposed to punishment?
Pre-court diversion means significant investment in probation services, and it's a real shame, given that you've outlined the problems caused by the privatisation of the probation service, that your Government didn't put up a bigger fight against the privatisation of those services when we in Plaid Cymru were warning that exactly this would happen.
Now, Plaid Cymru has long advocated for more rehabilitation, and without seeing the detail of any specific proposals, I'm of course limited in the contribution that I can make at this point. So, I look forward to seeing specific proposals published in the new year. I will say, though, that its apparent for all of us in the Chamber that your statement today comes at a time when there is growing concern about the state of the criminal justice system in Wales and that there is a consensus forming that things cannot continue as they are. A swathe of reports by the Institute of Welsh Affairs, the Wales Governance Centre, the Howard League for Penal Reform, and most recently a report by the Welsh Language Commissioner highlighting how the needs of Welsh-speaking prisoners are not being met, provide further and concrete evidence that the criminal justice system run by the Tories in Westminster is punitive, based on profit and stands in direct opposition to the aims of rehabilitation.
The effects of not having a women's prison in Walesare well known in terms of the impact on families and communities, but clearly establishing a women's prison for Wales is not the answer. Can I therefore invite the Cabinet Secretary to confirm that the blueprint and the delivery plan will contain the firm commitment not to support the building of any new prison in Wales? And can I also ask for further clarity on what specific measures you as a Government will take to divert women away from the criminal justice system?
I welcome the rights-based approach to youth offending and the focus on adverse childhood experiences, and I would welcome further detail on this. Which agencies will you be working with in order to realise your vision on this? Will people have a right to access counselling services, for example, to overcome childhood trauma, both when that trauma happens in childhood and also later on in adulthood, if that is needed? Will there be a right to substance use treatment, if that's what is needed? What does a rights-based approach mean in concrete terms?
Plaid Cymru has long argued that it is ultimately onlythe devolution of responsibility for the criminal justice system that will allow us to design a comprehensive system that is fairer and that includes having rehabilitation at its heart. We await the Thomas commission's recommendations in this respect, but, in the interim, can I ask you to confirm how these proposals for a distinct Welsh approach for youth and women offenders are being developed under the current insufficient constitutional frameworks and how those will align with future developments occurring in the light of the Thomas commission?
Finally, can I ask you to put on the record that you are in favour of the full devolution of all aspects of the criminal justice system to address the underlying issues highlighted in your statement and to give effect to these principles of rehabilitation?

Alun Davies AC: Deputy Presiding Officer, let me answer the final question first. The answer is 'yes'. The answer is 'yes'. I would invite the Member for the Rhondda to seek a consensus and to seek opportunities to work together rather than to look for divisions between us. I believe that we have a real opportunity here. The Member outlined very wella number of critical reports about the prison service and the conditions in prisons in Wales, and I recognise the points that she makes. But I would say to her as well that we are more powerful where we seek agreement than where we seekdisagreement, and I would say to her that the evidence—[Interruption.]—the evidence—[Interruption.]—the evidence that I've given to the Thomas commission, and I'm very happy for it to be made public in due course, was very much about how we deliver a devolved justice system in Wales but also how we deliver a different system of justice in Wales.
She has asked me to confirm that we do not support the development of any new prison in Wales. Let me say this: we do not support and we will not supportthe building or the creation or the development of a prison for women in Wales. I've already outlined that we want to see different centres and different facilities for women in the criminal justice system. But we do need investment in the secure estate in the male adult estate, because the conditions in some of our prisons—as she has described herself—for male adult prisoners is simply unacceptable, and we do need to look at how we develop that and how we invest in the secure estate to have an estate that is fit for purpose in the twenty-first century. And let me say this: there can be nobody—there can be nobody—who would seriously argue that the secure estate, in its entirety that we have in Wales, was in any way designed and developed to serve the people of Wales. Up until 18 months ago, we had no facility outside of the M4 corridor. Up until today, we still have no facilities for women and the only youth offending institution is contained within the adult prison in Parc. None of those areas are sufficient, and none of those areas are areas where I am content with the infrastructure and the estate. So, I want to see investment in the whole of that estate to do things differently, to do things differently in the future than what we've seen in the past, and I think there is general agreement with the direction of travel with the probation service.
Again, I'm asked, 'How will we deliver this?', 'How will we work in order to deliver a different probation service?' We will work with the Ministry of Justice and we will work with the Home Office in order to ensure that we have the approach from both policing and within the secure estate to deliver our objectives. It isn't sufficient—it isn't sufficient—simply to deliver a lecture on the constitution whilst people in the system are suffering. And I won't do that. I won't do that. I won't simply say that the current system, the structures, the constitution, are inadequate and leave it at that. I will roll up my sleeves and do everything I can to invest in the future of the people who are currently within the criminal justice system, and that, I believe, is what the people of Wales will want us to do.
But the questions you ask go further than that, and I accept that we do need a different and a more holistic approach. We do need to look at how we deal with substance misuse within the criminal justice system. I would go further than the Member suggested, in fact, because I believe we also need to look at how we deal with wider mental health issues within the criminal justice system. I believe that we do need to deliver targeted support for people. We need to look at how we deliver housing for people who are leaving the criminal justice system, who are leaving the secure estate. We need to look harder at how we deliver training, how we deliver education. We need to look harder at how we deliver a pathway out of criminal justice, out of offending for people. And what these blueprints do is to start that journey and to establish the framework, the principles, that will guide us on that journey.

Julie Morgan AC: I welcome this statement, and I look forward to seeing the blueprints when they are published. As a general point, I know that these blueprints are covering two particular areas of female offenders and young people, but would the Cabinet Secretary agree that there is a very strong case for making great concerted efforts to generally bring down the prison population in Wales? Because, certainly, the UK commits more people to prison than almost any other country, and so I think there's a general point there that I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary would address.
And I also welcome the proposal to have a distinct penal strategy, and I also welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary does want to have the criminal justice system devolved because, as it is at the moment, we're stuck in a halfway house, where we have to work within the parameters of the current devolution settlement, which is very unsatisfactory, because, obviously, aspects of the justice system that affect prisoners are devolved but major aspects are not. So, I know that the Cabinet Secretary has already said his views on that. I absolutely agree with himthat the last thing we want in Wales is a women's prison. I've campaigned about this for many years, and the problems that women and their families encounter through imprisonment I think have been well catalogued and have been discussed here quite extensively this afternoon, so I won't go into that.
But I'd like to press the Cabinet Secretary just a bit more about these five women's centres and whether he actually does think one of them will be in Wales. Obviously, we would need, certainly, access to more than one in Wales, and one may be not enough, but what stage are those discussions at? Because I think we really need to be sure that Wales does have the opportunity to have access to that money that's coming from the Ministry ofJustice. But I was concerned to hear that, on 9 November, the Ministry of Justice announced funding of £3.3 million for 12 community organisations to support women offenders, and none of these appear to be in Wales. So, I wondered if the Cabinet Secretary has any information about that, because I understand that a further £1.7 million is still to be awarded. So, could he tell us what discussions he's had with the Ministry of Justice about this funding and whether he has any indication of whether organisations based in Wales will benefit from them? I did look at the list of organisations that had had this money in England, and it did seem that there were some very good projects that were receiving funding, and I hope that there'll be the opportunity to look at this in Wales again.
I think we've had—. This argument about women prisoners in Wales, women offenders in Wales, has been long running, and I'm really pleased that we seem to have reached the stage where we do now acknowledge that we do need a different approach to women prisoners. So, I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will press ahead to make sure we get a residential centre in Wales and that we get some access to this money from the Ministry of Justice.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Member for Cardiff North for her support, and I know she's been a campaigner on these matters for many years and has driven the debate on many of these issues over a significant period of time.
I want to start by agreeing with the general point that she makes about the prison population. In the 13 months I've been in this post, I've visited every single prison in Wales, and I've taken time to talk, not simply to the staff, although I havedone so, and the management of these institutions, but I've also sat in cells talking to the people who are being held thereand I've had a number of conversations with people who have described their lives to me in sometimes deeply upsetting detail. And what I've learnt is that we have failed those people as a society, and what I have learnt is that, as a Government, we've made too many speeches and not taken enough actions. And we need—. I'm thinking of somebody I spoke to in Cardiff last summer, who described to me how he had ended upback in Cardiff prison and what his expectations were for his life this autumn that we've spent here. I have to say, I think of him very regularly when I think about the approach that we take to these policies. I think of the conversations I've had with people who have been taken away from their families andwhere any opportunity they may have to turn their lives around has been made more difficult by public institutions and by public authorities who do not provide, and are not providing, the services in the way that the people we serve require and need. The conversations I've had with these people being held on the secure estate in our name have convinced me that we require far greater and far deeper reform to the penal system than is possible within the current circumstances and within the current settlement. And, when we consider these matters, it is the issue of women and the way in which we fail women that comes back, and I believe will provide the test for all of us, wherever we sit in this Chamber.
The issues around the women's centresI have discussed both with the Minister for female offenders and with the prisons Minister. I last met the prisons Minister about a month ago, and I discussed this matter with him. I believe that we do needat least one women's centre in Wales, and I do take on board the points made by the Conservative spokesperson about location, but also I do not believe that it is right and proper that it is run exclusively by the prison service. I believe that it would be best if it were managed by the Welsh Government to ensure that the focus is on the delivery of services and the focus is on rehabilitation, and not just a punitive experience. So, I believe that we do need to look urgently at not simply the bricks and mortar, but theservices thatare delivered in that facility and also the management of that facility.
I will also say this: we have focused on a women's centreas opposed to a women's prison and it is right and proper that we do so. But we also need to ensure thatwe have far greater and more diverse facilities available for women, which aren't simply about custody, but are about the delivery of services so that magistrates and others do have the opportunity to pass sentences thatare not always custodial and do provide the opportunity to bring servicestogether to ensure thatwomen and their families are not separated, divided, and broken by a system that should be there to support, to nourish and to sustain those families.
I will take up the issue that you've raised about the funds available from the Ministry of Justice; that did not form a part of the conversation I had with the prisons Minister last month. But I will say this to the Member for Cardiff North: the values that have driven you, over many years, to campaign on these matters are the values that drive this Governmentin seeking to address these issues as well.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you for your statement. As you say, we need more action and fewer words. Penal policy has been dominated by the Daily Mail for too many years, not just under the Conservative Government, but under previous LabourGovernments as well. So, we know that the current system doesn't work, because, if we send people to prison and they are simply learning new skills as a criminal and then being taken back to prison, we're simply wasting our time. So, rehabilitation has to be the key driver here, and I welcome your intent, but obviously am concerned that we still don't haveanything concrete in the way of a women's centre in Wales, particularly in relation to your comments about young people and the increasing pulling into crime that's happening with young people being pulled into the drugs trade through these county lines, and related issues around carrying knives, which is extremely worrying.
Now, you're absolutely right, it seems to me, to talk about the need for trauma-informed work with young people who've had very troubled lives, but I'm just wondering how we are going to deliver these services when youth work has been so hollowed out by years and years of austerity and cuts to local government, and, because they're not statutory services, often they are some of the first to go. So, I would commend, absolutely, the fantastic work that has been done in my constituency by youth workers to protect young people who are in danger of being sucked into the drugs trade and who are the people who young people are prepared to go to. They won't go to the police, because they think they'll then be regarded as somebody who is informing on other people, but youth workers are a neutral body of people who know how to talk to young people and who they can rely on to protect them and to advise them. So, this seems to me one of the major problems, really, thatyou highlight the importance of trauma-informed youth services, but we have a shrinking number of that public service.

Alun Davies AC: I think Jenny Rathbone, as she does very often, of course, has identified the key challenge facing us. I'm grateful to you, Jenny, for your support for the approach that we're taking, but you're absolutely right: the judgment will be on our actions and not our speeches, and I certainly do recognise that. But let me say a word about the approach that I've taken and how I've sought to address exactly the challengeyou've described this afternoon. At the moment, many of the difficulties we face are because we do have a broken settlement, where we're unable to deliver a holistic approach to policy.
In creating the policing board for Wales, which met for the first time a few weeks ago, we are looking at developing an approach through the police and through agencies working alongside the police that will treat vulnerability in a way that would have been unimaginable 10, 20 or 30 years ago. So, we're changing the way that we police many of our communities, and a conversation I had yesterday with the chief constable and the police and crime commissioner in Dyfed-Powysreflected many of the sorts of conversations that we've been having, and I believe the policing board will enable us to begin the job of bringing together, if you like, different arms of policy, different agents of policy, and different authorities to work in a more coherent way and to treat vulnerability in a way we simply couldn't do before.
We then need to bring the penal system into that, and the wider criminal justice system into that as well, and I believe that we can do that. I believe that what I've seen from people working within the system is an absolute commitment to the debate that we've had this afternoon, and to the values that have driven the debate that we've had this afternoon. So, I believe that we can do that as well. What I've sought to do at every occasion has been to seek agreement with the Ministry of Justice and with the Home Office to enable us to move forward.
As I said in answer to an earlier question, these people are suffering today and are being failed today. Providing a speech on the future constitution of the United Kingdom is not a sufficient answer to the issues they face in their daily lives. So, we've sought to deliver an approach that may not deliver everything that we would like to see, but it is beginning to deliver an approach to preventative measures that will have an impact in the future.
But let me say this, in closing: I believe that there are examples around the world of Governments who have succeeded in delivering real, preventative actions that have addressed vulnerable people and vulnerable families and vulnerable communities. I believe we have a lot to learn from those Governments and those approaches. I believe that the approaches that we've been taking in terms of some of the initiatives we've taken in local government and elsewhere are beginning to find a way towards addressing those issues. But what I will say is this—that the principles of justice should run through all of our work as a Government, because what I've been seeing is that people who are, as you say, in thecounty lines environment, are not there because they want to offend. They're not there because they want to take and deal in drugs. But they're there because they've been failed and because they see no alternative to doing so. It is creating those alternatives that is our challenge and what we have to do, and I believe, as a Government here in Wales, we can do that.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

9. The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2018

Item 9 on the agenda is the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2018, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance to move the motion, Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM6894 Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2018 is made in accordance with the draftlaidin the Table Office on 7 November 2018.

Motion moved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I propose the motion to approve the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2018. This sets the multiplier for non-domestic rates for 2019-20. Last year, the Welsh Government outlined its intention to change the inflation measure used to calculate the multiplier in Wales from the retail price index, RPI, to the consumer price index, CPI, from 1 April 2018. For 2018-19, this was done by an Order, which was approved by this Assembly in January. This Order sets the multiplier for 2019-20 on the same basis. The Order needs to be approved before a vote can be held on the local government financial reports and the local government and police settlement for 2019-20. The impact of the Order will be to limit the increase in all non-domestic rating bills for 2019-20. Businesses and other ratepayers in Wales have already benefited from savings of around £9 million through our use of CPI for 2018-19, and they will benefit by an additional £22 million in 2019-20. We intend to continue to use the same methods in ensuing years.
I am grateful to the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for considering the multiplier Order and for making it possible for us to discuss it today. The committee raised a merits point on the figure for B, which is noted in the Order and in the explanatory note, but not in the explanatory memorandum. Although an explanation of the figure is included in the explanatory note, I do accept that it would have been useful to have included the actual figure in the explanatory memorandum to make the impact of the Order clear. We will deal with this merits point in further Orders.
This change will assist businesses and others who pay rates in Wales and will provide a sustainable and stable tax revenue for local services. The change has been funded in full by the Welsh Government and there will be no impact on the funding provided for local services. I therefore seek Members’ approval for this Order today.

Russell George AC: Can I extend my congratulations to the Cabinet Secretary on his election as the leader of his party?
It is to be welcomed that the Welsh Government has decided to use the £26 million budget consequential from increased spending by the UK Conservative Government to extend its high street rates relief scheme for a further year. But this only, of course, represents a temporary fix to the pressure facing small and medium-sized businesses in Wales. Sadly, what we do have before us today is the most expensive rate multiplier in Great Britain. This will increase, I think, the burden on SMEs, and no amount of temporary rate relief can counter that fact, coupled with a very low permanent business rate relief of 100 per cent for rateable values under £6,000. Welsh businesses will face a poorer deal than their counterparts in Scotland and England. I hope the Cabinet Secretary can therefore explain why he is reluctant to adopt what I and colleagues on these benches have been calling for: the wholesale reform of the business rates system in Wales and 100 per cent rate relief for those with arateable value of up to £15,000. The point I would make is that the UK Government set out a business tax road map in March 2016 to give businesses clarity on its plans for business rates up to and beyond 2020. This includes more frequent business rates revaluations within at least a three-year interval.
I wonder if you do acknowledge that, without taking these steps, your Government will be presiding over a country that is fast becoming the least competitive country in the UK. What Wales needs now, more than ever before, is a fresh approach by first understanding that businesses, and investing in businesses, lead to opportunities for jobs, regeneration and, ultimately, a higher tax return for the Government.
The First Minister said today that one of the greatest challenges of the Welsh economy would be to ensure that small businesses want to and are able to grow into major companies, and I agree with him. But higher business rates and a higher rate multiplier are going to prevent those small and medium-sized businesses from expanding further. So, we are unable to support the Government today, as the Order leaves business owners strangled by the Welsh Government's outdated business rates regime.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance to reply.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Russell George for what he said in opening. I struggled to follow, Dirprwy Lywydd, how most of the rest of what he had to say related to the non-domestic rating multiplier Order in front of the Assembly, which has the effect of lowering bills that businesses would otherwise be facing in Wales—because it uprates business rates in line with CPI rather than RPI, and that will put £22 million back into the pockets of businesses next year—if this Order were not passed. In fact, I disagree with almost everything the Member said from there on in. We are ourselves committed to more frequent revaluations. I would very much like to be able to give greater certainty on the £26 million I announced at the end of last week to Welsh businesses, but his Government only provides a budget for Wales for next year, and next year alone. Had we the same certainty as the Chancellor was able to offer in England, then I would have been able to have extended the same certainty to businesses in Wales.
The nature of our business community is different, the nature of our rating revaluations is different. We provide a system in which the real-terms contribution from non-domestic rates in Wales has not risen for a decade. The only thing that has risen is the amount of help going from the taxpayer to those businesses to help sustain them here in Wales.
The Order in front of the Assembly this afternoon is a relatively small but important contribution to that, and I hope that Members will indeed support it.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. The Humane Trapping Standards Regulations 2019

Item 10 on our agenda this afternoon is the Humane Trapping Standards Regulations 2019, and I call on the Minister for Environment to move the motion, Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NDM6895 Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1.Approves that the draft Humane Trapping Standards Regulations 2019 are made in accordance with the draftlaidin the Table Office on 14 November 2018.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move this motion.
The Humane Trapping Standards Regulations 2019 implement the requirements of the agreement on international humane trapping standards concluded between the European Community, the Government of Canada and the Government of the Russian Federation. The agreement seeks to improve animal welfare standards by prohibiting the use of traps that do not comply with humane trapping standards. It requires compliant traps to be certified and identified for manufacturers, and requires trapping to be carried out in accordance with its standards.
The EU is a party to the agreement. However, there isn't any implementing legislation at EU level, so these regulations are required to meet obligations under EU law. The regulations will have an impact on five species: badger, beaver, otter, pine marten and stoat. Of these, only the stoat is regularly and widely trapped in the UK and is the only species for which lethal traps are commonly used. Therefore, the effects of these regulations will mainly impact on those who trap stoats.
Delays in bringing forward the regulations arose primarily from the lack of suitable AIHTS-compliant traps for stoat. This issue has now been resolved, and AIHTS-compliant traps are available. However, in order to give manufacturers time to produce compliant traps and for trap users to replace their existing traps, we have included a transitional provision that delays implementation for stoat until 1 April 2020. With this provision, we are giving manufacturers and trap users a clear signal that they must transition to compliant traps, whilst recognising that they need time to do so. These regulations will enable the Welsh Ministers to certify traps and improve the design of traps, as well as improve the standards with which traps must comply before they can be used, creating an internationally recognised benchmark for animal welfare.
The implementation of these regulations will result in improvements to the welfare of trapped animals by removing traps from use that have a lower standard of animal welfare. I commend them to Members.

Thank you very much. There are no speakers in the debate. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We now move to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. I am going to go to voting.No. Right. Therefore—[Interruption.] I need three Members to show. Ring the bell.

The bell was rung to call Members to the Chamber.

11. Voting Time

We have now come to voting time, so we're going to vote now on the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2018. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Julie James. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 36, two abstentions, 11 against, therefore the motion is agreed.

NDM6894 - The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) (No.2) Order 2018: For: 36, Against: 11, Abstain: 2Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That concludes today's business. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 17:49.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Neil McEvoy: Will the First Minister make a statement on the number of long-term empty residential properties in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The latest figures show that, as at 31 March 2017, there were just over 1,300 empty social sector homes and around 27,300 private sector properties that had been vacant for six months or more.

Angela Burns: What action has the Welsh Government taken to address workforce shortages in the NHS?

Mark Drakeford: Last month, the Cabinet Secretary announced a record level of investment to support health education and training in Wales. We also continue to work with health boards and with Health Education and Improvement Wales on recruitment challenges, supported by our successful 'Train. Work. Live.' campaign.

Mandy Jones: What assessment has the First Minister made of health outcomes in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: I continually assess the performance, successes and challenges of delivering services and improving health outcomes across Wales. In north Wales, we have made significant investment to deliver improvements and we are clear on the further work needed to deliver services fit for the future.

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government ensuring best value for public procurement?

Mark Drakeford: The Wales procurement policy statement provides the framework to support the public sector in securing best value for money and delivering effective outcomes for local communities across Wales.

Joyce Watson: What action will the Welsh Government take in 2019 to raise living standards in Mid and West Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We plan to raise living standards across all parts of Wales through investment in services, by building a strong economy and supporting people to overcome barriers to work.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the First Minister provide an update on the latest situation regarding the Welsh Government's pending decision on the proposed M4 relief road?

Mark Drakeford: I provided a written statement last week to update Members on the current situation. That orders decision will not now be taken by me, but will be made following the appointment of the new First Minister, likely to be sometime in the new year.

Suzy Davies: Will the First Minister make a statement on waiting times for emergency services in South Wales West?

Mark Drakeford: We expect the three emergency services in Wales to work together to provide safe, timely and joined-up emergency services to all Welsh citizens, including those in south-west Wales.

David Melding: What action is the Welsh Government taking to eradicate missed appointments in the Welsh NHS?

Mark Drakeford: Health boards are using a variety of different tools to remind patients to attend appointments, including text messaging and phone reminders. Missed appointments cost the NHS, and patients have a role to play in ensuring that arranged appointments are attended.

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs

Caroline Jones: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the implications for Wales following the COP24 United Nations Climate Change Conference?

Lesley Griffiths: COP24 in Katowice is focused on progressing the Paris agreement. The conference concludes at the end of this week. Wales is already driving forward action through our new legislative framework to 2050, with our interim targets and carbon budgets. Next year, we will be publishing a delivery plan.

Mark Reckless: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on local authorities co-operating when drafting local development plans?

Lesley Griffiths: LDPs must be prepared efficiently and effectively, maximising collaboration to ensure issues crossing administrative boundaries are effectively considered in the plan making process. The new 'Planning Policy Wales', published last week, reinforces this position by requiring authorities to work together, reflecting housing market areas, transport and commuting patterns.

Questions to the Minister for Environment

Mohammad Asghar: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on how Welsh Government policies are preserving wildlife?

Hannah Blythyn: The nature recovery action plan sets out our strategy and actions for wildlife, strengthening our approach for species and habitats across Government. This has, for example, seen us invest £4 million, securing an additional £11 million of EU funding, for three successful LIFE projects for important Welsh habitats.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's policy on the incineration of waste?

Hannah Blythyn: Subject to planning and permitting controls, incineration is widely used to deal with difficult materials such as clinical or hazardous wastes. In the waste sector, the Welsh Government supports the limited use of high-efficiency energy from waste plants for the treatment of non-recyclable materials, in line with the waste hierarchy.

Questions to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip (Julie James)

Jane Hutt: Will the Leader of the House provide an update on Welsh Government action towards making Wales the safest place in Europe to be a woman?

Julie James: We continue to implement our national strategy. I launched the VAWDASV perpetrator service standards last week, the statutory regional commissioning guidance will be published in the new year and we are working with the Wales Centre for Public Policy to scope reviews of refuge provision and sexual violence services.

Mark Isherwood: What policies does the Welsh Government have to ensure that barriers to equality for disabled people are removed?

Julie James: The Welsh Government has adopted the social model of disability, recognising that we need to remove all sorts of barriers that prevent disabled people from living the lives they want. This is increasingly being reflected across our policies, including transport, education, environment and health, as reflected in our new framework.

Helen Mary Jones: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to promote the equality and human rights of older people with mental health issues?

Julie James: The strategic framework for an ageing society will place older people at the heart of policy making. Preparatory work has sharpened our focus on the issues that matter to older people, including mental health. The framework will drive a rights-based approach that has a practical, quantifiable impact on people’s lives.

Jenny Rathbone: What is the Welsh Government doing to improve the well-being of Gypsy and Traveller children?

Julie James: We recognise that children from Gypsy and Traveller communities face many additional barriers, including in relation to education, health and public perceptions. Our 'Enabling Gypsies, Roma and Traveller' plan contains a comprehensive suite of actions to improve their life chances and well-being.

Darren Millar: Will the Leader of the House make a statement on the Welsh Government’s engagement with faith communities in Wales?

Julie James: Faith leaders meet with the First Minister and me twice a year through the faith communities forum to discuss issues affecting the economic, social and cultural life of Wales. The Welsh Government is committed to working with faith groups throughout the year to promote understanding and foster community cohesion.

Helen Mary Jones: What recent discussions has the Leader of the House held in order to secure the provision of broadband in Rhydymain in Dwyfor Meirionnydd?

Julie James: Following their successful bid for lots 1 and 3 of the successor programme, I will be meeting with BT to discuss future roll-out. However, the roll-out is just one part of our suite of interventions, with the Access Broadband Cymru and ultrafast connectivity voucher schemes available to secure connectivity.